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Thread: what your 375 grouping?

  1. #1
    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Default what your 375 grouping?

    I been working on the new Remington XCR at the range and not happy with the groupings. The gun had been to a gun smith and I'm going back to see him Tuesday. I'm getting group in the 1 3/4" range and just not happy as well as getting a odd flyer. What kind of groups is everyone getting with theirs?

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    Depends on the ammunition. My rifle (Model 70 post 64) will not shoot Nosler partitions to save it's life. The best I can do is about 2 inches. It will shot sub one inch groups with standard Remington and Federal loads. All other loads average about an inch.

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    I have a .375 RUM and it wouldn't shoot groups any better than 2.75- 3" with just about all the factory ammo I tried. Talked to a Remington Customer Service guy and he told me that they would only replace it if the rifle wouldn't group under 4".

    I took it to my gunsmith and had him lighten the trigger to 3#, re-cut the crown, lap the recoil lugs, and bed the action. The group shrunk to about 1.5-1.75" @ 100 yards. At that point I figure it's good enough for all the big game I'm going after. After all, it's not like I'm trying to prairie dog hunt with it or anything.

    I haven't tried hand loading yet (just building up my brass supply right now ), but I'm sure the groups would shrink again.

    The other thing I was going to do was have my gunsmith set back my barrel, re-cut the chamber, and square off the action to the barrel. I didn't do it yet though, but I'm still thinking about it.

  4. #4

    Default hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by tboehm View Post
    I been working on the new Remington XCR at the range and not happy with the groupings. The gun had been to a gun smith and I'm going back to see him Tuesday. I'm getting group in the 1 3/4" range and just not happy as well as getting a odd flyer. What kind of groups is everyone getting with theirs?
    I'm not bothered by groups in the 2" range, though my Ruger #1 375 pretty consistently cuts that in half. I've got a couple of customs- one a heavy 26" on a LH Mauser 3000 action and the other a very light 22" on a LH Remington 700- that drop shots into the 1.5-2" range. Frankly it's never occurred to me to be bothered that they didn't shoot better. Just not an issue for me in a hunting gun.

    I would be concerned about the fliers, though. Have you tried shooting your loads using a lead sled? My 700 is very light (7 pounds). It was showing frequent fliers and best groups without fliers no better than 2-3" till I put a 25 pound bag of shot between me and it. That little thing is a joy to carry but a ripsnorting beast to shoot from the bench. I'm not afraid to admit that in my case at least, the larger groups and fliers were driver error.

    A lead sled or bag of shot will help you sort out your own role in the group size and fliers before spending a bunch of money on gunsmithing. It's just not going to shoot better after extensive smithing if the problem isn't with the gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathray7 View Post
    I have a .375 RUM and it wouldn't shoot groups any better than 2.75- 3" with just about all the factory ammo I tried. Talked to a Remington Customer Service guy and he told me that they would only replace it if the rifle wouldn't group under 4".

    I took it to my gunsmith and had him lighten the trigger to 3#, re-cut the crown, lap the recoil lugs, and bed the action. The group shrunk to about 1.5-1.75" @ 100 yards. At that point I figure it's good enough for all the big game I'm going after. After all, it's not like I'm trying to prairie dog hunt with it or anything.

    I haven't tried hand loading yet (just building up my brass supply right now ), but I'm sure the groups would shrink again.

    The other thing I was going to do was have my gunsmith set back my barrel, re-cut the chamber, and square off the action to the barrel. I didn't do it yet though, but I'm still thinking about it.
    Probably lapped the locking lugs....this, along with recrowning and bedding will generally help the rifles accuracy. The trigger job is for the shooter...and so is some kind of recoil abatement...this will shrink groups in larger calibers.

    To be quite honest, I'm perfectly happy with 1 1/2" groups from my hunting loads in 375 class rifles. i don't generally shoot beyond 250 yards and I can make that work for me. I shoot a lot of Swift A-frame bullets, I think that is the toughest bullet for most DG or big guy hunting and it is not a target bullet. I'm always happy with 1.5" groups with those. I have never seen any rifle not shoot a Nosler Partition inside an inch...nat a rifle that will shoot anything at all. As with most things your mileage will vary.

    I also I do not own a lead sled or any such appliance, it would likely help me to shoot smaller groups because it would reduce recoil to the shoulder. But they are hard to take to the field. I will use a PACT sissy pad at the bench if I need to shoot from the bench and that allows me to shoot more shots from more guns.

    I've got this little 7# Mauser that launches 350 grain Swift A-frames at 2250 fps. It is in a cheap chunck of wood with drop for irons and a hard rubber (plastic) plate on the butt....I can hit a gallon bucket at 200 yards sitting on the ground and shooting over my knees....that is easy on me and that is as good as I need to be with this rifle. I don't care about its grouping ability but I guess one day I will put the scope on it and let it beat me to a pulp over the bench for a few shots just to see. Maybe after I let Doug bed it and put a decellerator on it.

    We used to say; "For the price of a Remington and a long gunsmithing bill you could have a Sako....they would both shoot great."
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  6. #6
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    Default My XCR Groupings

    Hi,

    The best is .92". This was achieved with a load from this forum by BrownBR. I rested on 2 sand bags. I believe the load was 270 gr Hornady SP, 72 grains of IMR 4064 and Remington brass. I used Lee Collet Dies. This was for 375 H&H.

    Good Luck

    Ron

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    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    I have a push feed Winchester 70 in 375 H&H that will shoot an honest < inch 5 shot group at 100 yards but here is the rub………… it will only do it with the now defunct Hornady 270 grain round nose. Granted I have not had the time or money to experiment with every 270 – 300 grain bullet available, but so far I have tried the Nosler Partition (260 gr), Speer Grand Slam and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Sierra’s 300 grainer, Winchesters Fail Safe and they all shoot ok, but not great thru this gun. For some reason it just really likes those Hornady round nose bullets. I have also tried the Hornady spitzers and got marginal accuracy. All of the above would group less than 2 inches for three shots and would be more than adequate for hunting in my opinion. I am confident that with more time I could shrink the groups with just about any of these bullets down to about an inch and a half, but with my other current projects taking up my load development time, the old 375 may have to wait for a couple more years to get fine tuned.
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    I have owned several 375's and the only one I considered really accurate was a 375-.338 that Paul Marquart installed one of his nice stainless barrels on a lefty Remington 700. Some people tell me he never made a stainless 375 but I know for sure he made one, mine!
    Anyhow, this rifle was a true MOA 375. Seemed like anything I would shoot would group 3 shots into one inch and this was with receiver sights on the rifle. Typically I did something stupid and sold it years ago. Rumor has it someone from Fairbanks bought it as it was sold on consignment at Boondocks in Eagle River.
    Owned a couple of Rem 700 from there custom shop and they would average 1.5 - 2 inches.
    I am not to quick to condemn the rifles though. These lightweight beasts are a different breed and they are very difficult to shoot accurately off the bench. The recoil was up there as they only weighed about 7.5 pounds scoped. I guess the point of this long winded post is that a heavy recoiling rifle is more usually difficult to shoot accurately.
    Tennessee

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    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    You could always try some reduced loads that will take the “recoil” factor out of the equation. While your at it, load up some near maximum loads with the Hornady 220 grain flat point and find a nice sized water melon to shoot. Spectacular is a huge understatement in defining the terminal performance of this load! Obviously not a hunting load, but I am confident that it would reduce a fox or perhaps even a wolf down to its molecular level. The 200 grain Sierra flat nose is equally as impressive. Both of those bullets when loaded down with reduced loads shoot very well, have minimal recoil and muzzle blast and can be very accurate out to about 100 yards. There is naturally a large shift in point of impact versus the 270 -300 grain full house loads, but the do work good for flinchless practice sessions.
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    In the three 375 I have loaded for, none have like the 300 Partition, all have liked 260 Partitions and RN varietys of all weights. Amything under 2" is gravy for a 375 though.

  11. #11

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    In my custom CZ 550 - 260 Accubonds at 2785-2795 = 1.2 " @ 100 & 1.9" @200.

    300 partition @ 2500 = 1.5" @100 and 2.0 " at 200yards.

    350 Woodliegh (just because) = 2200 FPS = 2.4 " @ 100 YARDS

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    My 375 is totally velocity dependent, the slower the more accurate. It shoots most bullets equally well given equal velocity. Around 2450, the slowest I've tried, it shoots very well close to .5, by 2600 it is around 1.0, over 2800 it may go 2+. I load for a compromise between energy and accuracy looking for around 1.25-1.5 depending on the bullet. It has worked out well for me because I was able to find hunting loads for the Nosler BT 260/2694fps, Barnes TSX 270/2740fps, and Barnes Solid 270/2620fps that for all practical purposes have the same POI and all with groups less than 1.5.

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    That's interesting on the decreasing velocity Ed. My Ruger #1 doesn't do it with jacketed bullets, but the slower I push cast bullets the better they shoot. At around 1100fps it will stack bullets into 1 ragged hole at 50 yards and often less than an inch at 100. Talk about fun, cheap shooting!

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    About 8 inches for 10 rounds fired. It sucks. It is due to the 3/4" long parallel throat (I think). I have some 350 grain Barnes originals loaded backwards that just touch the rifling, but haven't fired them yet. I should do that.
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    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Default I feel a little better

    I should mention that I was using a lead sled II so there is no recoil to feel but I'm going to talk with the gun smith about lapping the lugs and checking everything out. I shot yesterday and had the 1 3/4" group and then all of a sudden I had a 1/2" group and then back to the 2" group. I had some fiber optic sights but on but I'm not sure that I like them due to the minute of angle that they cover at a 100 yrds. I may be getting to picky and may never use it at that range but I can still hit a 6" bull with it. I may need to get my mind right and think like an alaskan. They are large and bright and I could pick up a target fast at close range and that may be the most important thing. Any thought on that?

  16. #16

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    With my developed load my smallest is .350" and largest is .768". What Murphy said, " Probably lapped the locking lugs....this, along with recrowning and bedding will generally help the rifles accuracy." I also believe that most problems are not so much the rifle at times as with load development and attention to OAL. Some rifles that will not shoot with factory loads are due to OAL and needing slower velocities which a hand load can take care of and I hope you find the solution.
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    For the times that people tell me that they are shooting sub-MOA groups with Remington .300 RUM groups using .300 RUM Remington brass, I feel like reaching in my pocket and hoping for a little side wager. I want to see it done. That has to be the worst brass I've ever seen.

    Lapping lugs, well there are all kinds of degrees of lapping. I sure as heck do not hunt with a full (100%) contact lug engagement hunting rifle. As much as 60% maybe. Running around with a hunting rifle that I have to keep the lugs greased on, is not my idea for a hunting rifle. Full lug contact requires lube on the lugs or you will get galled lugs real quick.

    Personally I think Remington guy was right. Why do I need a sub or MOA .375 rifle?

    I sure as heck don't select a hunting bullet for accuracy, not in the .375. I only care what it does on the hunting victims, not what it does on paper.

    Blowing up grounds squirrels is one thing, shooting moose and bear are another. Thin jacketed bullets have there place, and that sure as heck ain't here.

    If the kind of hunting accuracy is what we think we need is under 2" MOA, then All the WINCHESTER 94's would have not made the grade and nobody would have used one.
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  18. #18

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    If you sight in to use the very top edge of the front bead as you aiming point rather than the middle of the bead, you can get really precise even with big sights. Big and bright is good when light is low and you're in a hurry.

    The best game shot I've hunted with in 45+ years in the field used an older Savage 99 with peep sights in 300 Savage and factory 150 grain loads. He could hit or worry half gallon milk cartons filled with water offhand further away and faster that I cared to try with a scoped rifle. I tried his 99 and I couldn't even see the milk carton behind the bead at 100 yards, much less at 300. Yet he could blow them up just about as fast as he could work the lever, with misses only starting to mount when he passed 200 yards.

    That's when he showed me the trick of using the top edge of the bead rather than the middle of the bead. You can see even small targets while picking your impact point really accurately. Still doing it that way myself after all these years, but distant milk cartons are still pretty safe.

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    My CZ 550 shoots a 2" group at 200 yards using my handloaded 300gr Barnes TSX. It will also shoot 1.75" groups at 200 with the 270gr TSX.

  20. #20

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    Browning A-Bolt w/BOSS shooting Remington 270gr factory bullets punching holes with about 1 3/4 inch group at 200 yards. I'm not sure you could ask for much better without going to some sniper weapon.
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