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Thread: Re-sealing/Re-rivetting a 19' Grumman Sq. Stern Canoe

  1. #1
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    Default Re-sealing/Re-rivetting a 19' Grumman Sq. Stern Canoe

    Has anyone ever re-sealed or re-rivetted a 19' Grumman square stern canoe? Creative methods for addressing leaking rivets?

    I'm told that the rivets used utilize a sealant. Is this added, or a part of specialized rivets?

    I procured this beast last year or so, and we cleaned about 15 years (literally) worth of tree pitch and pollen from the bottom, using nylon brushes and simple green, so as not to grind on the aluminum any more than necessary.

    The motor that I have for it needs some TLC, and perhaps a touch more, but it moves quite nicely at higher rpm's (sometimes dies at trolling speed), and at slower speeds, the bushing (?) in the lower unit sounds like it could use a bit of help after 34 years of what was clearly intermitent hard use.

    Once the pitch was removed from the exterior of the hull, and the aluminum was brought back to an adequate condition, etc., we took it to Paxson Lake, and trolled for lakers for a day.

    Coming back after fishing, I noted that we'd acquired quite a bit of water in the stern of the boat.

    I strongly suspect that there are rivets that are loose, and that cleaning away the 15 years worth of pitch/pollen/sap accelerated this feature.

    We'd floated the boat before purchasing it, and at that time, there were no leaks at all.

    I still need to suspend it on (stout) saw horses or blocks, and run some water into it, in order to see if I can locate any specific areas of leakage.

    I've checked into spraying Rhino Liner in the inside of the hull (as a quick, expensive, heavy, but effective sealer), but due to the darker color of the Rhino-liner attracting the sun's heat, and the shrinkage that's caused by the colder water of the lake in re. to thinner aluminum hulls, the folks who've tried this before said, "Don't do it." It apparently works fine on thicker aluminum, but not on thinner aluminum.

    Anyone re-rivetted or re-sealed a boat like this before? Ideas? Referrals to services? Costs?

    I guess that I could take a lesson from the previous (original owner) of the boat (as well as from our ancestors) and re-seal the thing with spruce sap, but I'm hoping for a longer-term and more conventional (and less annoyingly sticky) fix, if there, indeed, is one..

    Thanks,

    ruffle

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    Yes, I spent three days at the Lund facility in Minnesota in the their boat repair shop learning how to repair riveted boats. If you wish to PM me, I can give you some insight on what you will need to get'er done.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Default 19 FT leaks

    befor you do to much with the reriverting, make sure the water is not coming up an over the transom, with an out board on the back an movine right along water will come over the back of most of the 19 FT units, the problem is there when opend up an moving, so check it out befor you do any repair.
    most of the 19 FT use a rag or any thing that will soake up the water an wring it out every so oftern

    SID

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    Thanks Sid and Al.

    Obviously the first step is to find exactly where, or if, any leaks are coming from. Once there, I'll decide whether to pursue the complete re-riveting (which sounds like a heck of a seriously involved task), or making due with some non-conventional method of re-sealing the thing, making it 'good enough.'

    ruffle

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    Default sealing

    RTV work's just great, the stuff that smells it grab's the metal better an holds don't need a lot to seal

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    Thanks Sid.

    I've got a marine-grade sealant (caulk) that I've used on the transom, and elsewhere.

    I've wondered what percentage of the H2O came in over the anti-spray ribs on the exterior of the hull that are supposed to block the bow's spray. I don't think that a whole lot came in over the transom, though. But I guess that I won't know 'til I do some closer looking. And that might mean.... more boating...

    ruffle

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    Default Water In Canoe

    I belived that till you look back when you are going fast you will not belive how much comes up around motor, the only way you will see it is turn around an look when goiny fast you will be suprised ,when I run mine wide open [15HP] I get a fair amount so don't be to suprised What I used was A sponge that would suck up the water with out you doing a thing use two workes better

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    Ruffle,

    Repaired a few of them with marine sealant, some with just shoe-goo. Doesn't pay to rerivet all, but anyplace where it's clear the rivets are completely loose or gone, we would often drill them out and fill with metal screws with sealant on them. Just didn't have a rivet gun.

    Sid's right; depending on load balance you can take a bit of water into the stern under power. That's why I always used a seymour stick and got my weight farther up to the front. Or put ballast in front. Sounds like more boating is in order! Have fun,

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    Default water leaks

    Ruffle....

    Are you using a skirt on the stern of your canoe? They help to reduce the amount of water getting into the canoe under power.

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    Hi Mark,

    I had my kids sitting up front with the limited gear, and even had a 12' line on the fuel, so that it sits forward as well, all as matter of weight ballancing toward the bow. I sat in the next seat up from the stern (roughly 1/3 of the way up from the stern), using a tiller extension, also specifically for attaining a more level ride on-step.

    Total time spent that day at higher speeds was likely inside of a half-hour +/-, with the rest at trolling speed, and probably less than 2 pints of H2O in the boat from rinsing hands, flinging fishing gear, etc.

    During the full-throttle portion of the ride, and partially as a result of the breeze, I specifically noted some mild to moderate bow spray coming in, past the spray ribs on the bow, and cross-ways to the boat's travel. Some water likely came from that as well.

    I never noted much water being splashed in around the transom, but some might've been there as well.

    All totalled, when I arrived back at the ramp, I'd guess that there was somewhere between 4 and 5 gallons of H2O in the aft of the canoe. A fair amount.

    A couple of folks have contacted me re. a more complete restoration, though I've only spoken with one of them, who has training in complete removal and resealing of panels. It does sound fairly intensive as a project, though. Not that it wouldn't be a worthy project. I suspect that it will be.

    I have a compressor, pneumatic rivetter, and some amount of time between other massive projects.

    And yes, more boating is, indeed, in order... Hopefully with the gunnels riding above the level of the lake. ;^>)

    ruffle

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    Hi Rick,

    As a result of Sid's comments, and now your and Mark's as well, I'd been considering taking some sort of either poly (tarp material) or 60 mil. rubber roofing material, and making a bellowing sort of affair, to be threaded around the upper bars of the lift, and past the inside of the lift's transom, sticking up slightly higher, somehow (perhaps with sections of stainless 1/4" rod fixed in place?), from the upper bars on the lift, to address that issue, just in case.

    But like I said earlier, it was a notable amount of water for what amounted to roughly a 1/2-hour or so on-step, and perhaps 4-5 hours trolling time.

    I appreciate ALL pieces of advice on this, and still want to suspend it on blocks fairly soon.

    Thanks,

    ruffle

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    Default Leak

    with that much water in the canoe I would take it to the nearest lake/pond an find out where the water is coning from an go to NAPA an get 25 ft of new gas line an change the line from the punp bulb to the fitting put tank in front it will help a lot but you will be supprised at how much water can come over the back when under full speed this is not a boat it is a very narrow transom and close to the water it will walk right up the motor an over the top

    SID

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    Default leak

    PS. when you start the motor up make sure all air is out of line as you will have heart failure if the canoe is going down or up a stream an the motor quits I know I have been doing it a lot of years an my heart still skips a beat when it happends SID

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    Hi SID,

    Thanks again.

    I currently have proper fittings on the fuel line, with the suction bulb near the stern, perhaps 24" from the motor, and a five-gallon plastic boat tank sitting under the middle seat (when in use), slightly forward of being centered under the seat, and to the side as much as it will stay there.

    My experience in the past, especially with smaller motors, is that if the line gets too long, the fuel won't flow as well. I can try to add another few feet, as that's no trouble, but I don't know that it'll perform any better, though it'll move the 30 to 40 lbs of fuel further forward, and that might help a bit too.

    Otherwise, I don't know if I understood you clearly re. the fuel line comment?

    Thanks again,

    ruffle

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    Thumbs up skirt

    Ruffle....

    My skirt is made from 28oz./ yard Shelterite ... a material that is used for tarps for semi loads on the haul road .... a very tough material. Do a search in the canoeing forum on "skirting" and you will find a picture I posted of the skirt on my 19'er, and see how it works with the lift raised.

    I think a skirt will reduce the amount of water in the boat. Let us know how it works.

    Happy Trails.
    Last edited by Rick; 06-15-2008 at 18:46. Reason: link wouldn't work.

  16. #16

    Default Canoe

    I like the epoxy paint (Gluv It) flexible works great on aluminum. Seals the rivets & boat then will slide off rocks. Used it on drift boats & Grumman canoes.

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    Default leak

    what I mean is you replace the long fuel line with a new fuel line I use a 25 ft line from Napa stores it comes in a 25 ft coil , Use old fitings an new clamps
    Most Engs will draw the fuel, it is just I had to make sure of no air in the line
    takes a little pratice but you will learn , an the fuel tank can go all the way forward an have some line to work in an around your load an not strech the line to the Eng I used clear fuel line for about 10 years then went to the black [NAPA], Have seen a pice of Plywood to cover the back seat it will cover the hole back seat area from gunnel to gunnel [on top of Gunnel] an put a pice of 2X4 or2X6 under the plywood on top of the seat so it won't bend when you set on it an you seal the edges so no water will get into the canoe from that area [impossable if you do a good seal job]

    Sid

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    Thanks SID, I think that I have an idea as to what the skirt you're referring to looks like. Fairly simple, and rests in a horizontal position, extending slightly over the back of the stern, and resting on the gunnels, with blocks of wood underneath it to raise it up to the level of the gunels, and reinforce it when sitting on it? Correct? (though I sit a ways forward of the stern panel/rear-most seat)
    ------------------------------------------------------
    kk alaska;

    You haven't witnessed any separation of the 'gluv it' from the aluminum, resulting from the cool temps of the water, or the conflicting warm temps of the sun on the material? If not, then I'm assuming that it's much thinner in final thickness than the Rhino-liner, yes?

    Any range of color to the stuff?

    Cost of enough to coat the entire outside of a 19' sq. stern??

    How long does a coat last before relatively moderate use would require a re-treatment? If you've had to re-coat a boat, does the old coat need to be removed first? If so, by what method? (Even the older boats had relatively thin aluminum.. compared to the much thicker aluminum used in many jet/river boats, so I've been fairly cautious about any serious abrasion to the skin of the hull).
    ------------------------------------------
    Rick,

    Thanks, I'll give it a look shortly. I'm interested in as many options as possible to make my choices from.

    The day's slipped away, and as usual, I got only a fraction of my list completed.
    -----------------------------------------------

    ruffle

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    Default 19 Ft

    You never said what size Motor you have ? If you ever get a lift for the canoe, you will stand in the canoe an your legs will be touching the support that is in front of you that way you can see what is in front of your canoe, this is real inportant if you are running rivers /streams , By touching the surport with your legs , left hand on the lift handle , right hand on gas/steering, you can run wide open an stand up to see what is up ahead .
    What will you if don't you don't want a lift is a rizer on the transom ,to raze the motor up so the prop is not a foot below the bottom the bottom of the canoe if you use a rizer you want the caveration plate of the Motor even with the bottom of the canoe the only problem you will have will be on a hard turn when you are wide open the eng. will caverate a little on you but not bad . [that is what worked best for me on my frist canoe]

    SID

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    Hi SID,

    It's got a 1974 J. Klingel/Beaver Sports lift, which needs to have a weld or two cut/broken, as there's a slight tilt to the transom/motor mount on the lift. I've been leveling the motor by inserting a small shim of wood, or what ever's handy, under one side of the clamps on the motor's mounting brackets, bringing the thing pretty close to level.

    Ideally I'll be getting the welds cut and re-welded soon. Perhaps even have the longer legs of the lift spread a bit at that time, so that they don't 'pinch' inward, or apply quite so much pressure to the gunnels where they mount up.

    The motor's a 1974 Evinrude 9.9 hp, with more adjustments for fuel mix, idle speed, etc., than anyone could possibly need, if they were really paying attention to their fishing. I see them as distractions, more apt to get bumped and unintentionally adjusted during use and moving.

    The motor sounds to me as though the bushing in the lower unit is questionable (especially noticeable when running at lower rpm's), the prop could use a 'face lift,' and I'm guessing that a complete rebuld on the carbeurator (if not the entire motor) would give it a whole new outlook on life. The impeller for the water pump seems to be working, but not as well as it should. It doesn't take much to cause intermitent pauses in the srteam of otherwise visible H2O; the least little bit of vegetative growth or (??), kicked up in the shallows, seems to give the water impeller a bit of grief.

    But for now, it gets up on step at higher rpm's, and goes pretty good on lake water.

    Without a spare prop, extra shear pins, etc., it's not going to go way up the Chena any time soon (which is where it spent much of the first 17 years of its younger life, from1974 through roughly 1991).

    It's already sporting a lengthy tiller extension, permitting me to sit a fair distance forward, and helping to keep the weight toward the bow.

    ruffle

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