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Thread: Consistantly catching reds....the legal way

  1. #1

    Default Consistantly catching reds....the legal way

    Let me first say that a red that chases and eats a lure or fly is by far the exception rather than the rule. Yes, I have seen it happen, but we are talking about a fish that rarely hits anything offered it in saltwater, much less on a spawning run. The key to catching them in the mouth (the only legal way) is to present the lure or fly at their level for as long as possible during the drift. This is accomplished by using the proper weight and technique. You also can't give them any time to spit the hook before it is set. Having done it many times and been observant in watching other people who were very proficient at it, this is what I've learned: 1) Don't try this technique while standing shoulder to shoulder on the Russian unless you enjoy conflict! 2) Use just enough weight to barely tick the bottom during the drift. 3) Don't cast upstream as this gives you too much slack and results in more bottom snagging. 4) Make your cast straight out and immediately point your rod downstream. This allows you to set the hook with a downstream motion so that you are pulling the fly into the corner of the fish's mouth, not out of his mouth. 5) Try to visualize what the line between the sinker and the fly is doing. You want it to remain as straight and crosscurrent as possible. This reduces the delay between the time the fly goes into the fish's mouth and when the hook is set. 6) When you do feel the fish, set the hook with a low horizontal downstream sweep, then lift the rod vertically to fight the fish with as little of the line in the water as possible. On the Kenai, the first 20 seconds are crucial in keeping the fish out of the main current. Some of the reds in the second Kenai run are very large, and, if they get out in the current too far, you will never land them. 7) Lastly, at the end of the drift, sweep the rod low and down current to remove the fly from the water. An abrupt upward lift snags fish and wastes your time and people around you, in addition to being unethical. If you are snagging fish constantly, your technique is wrong and you need to rethink what you are doing. If you use this technique and are observant about what is working for other people around you, I promise that you will have good success on reds.

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    Default The visual clue...

    I've been at Bed Springs Hole on Kodiak Island when the weir at Saltery was still up and the stall stacked the reds in the hole all pointing in the same direction.

    I spent hours there watching everything.

    A line flossed in the mouth of a red would tighten ever-so-lightly that I could observe it at the end of the rod tip while see it slide through the mouth of the fish.

    I got so good at recognizing this subtle line change that I would sometimes experiment in setting the hook even though the fish was unseen and the subtle line change was seen.

    Good heavens! It actually repeatedly worked!

    Sometimes, in the right conditions, the clue is visual...

    Rosenberg/Florida
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  3. #3

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    Awesome post. Thanks for the info.

    Im in front of my computer pretending Im doing it now.

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    If you are keeping the line between the sinker and the hook as cross-current as possible, just off the bottom, while leading the assemblage downstream with your rod tip, you aren't angling; you're flossing, and that's fine. That's exactly what you need to do. Proximity to people will determine your leader length between your weight and hook. Longer leader (6-8')+ longer rod (10'-6") + lots of elbow room + consistent bottom = lots of hookups. You can't utilize a long leader and long rod if you're around a bunch of folks. Nor does it work well if the bottom drops sharply at your feet then flattens out, and your gunning for fish right at the bottom of the steep slope at your feet. Short rod and leader is best in that case.

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    Oh, and bring enough reel to the fight. You should be able to land just about anything short of a belly snag with an Abu and 17lb line, if you're willing to pull that hard. Keep your rod up and get the fish jumping.

    Don't expect to stop an inadvertantly-flossed king with that rig. That's a whole different ballgame. Fun to watch them greyhound down the river in front of the other guys though.

  6. #6

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    Can you use what we call a Michigan rig? Snell on a yarn egg with 12" extra line, and attach sinkers past the hook? We do that here on the great lakes rivers for salmon. Some tightline, some drift. I can consistantly hook fish in the mouth using this method, about 70-80% fair hookups. Instead of setting the hook every cast, I watch my rod tip and feel the line tighten before setting the hook. My brother just casts his out, and leans his pole on a log until the fish bends the pole over. He doesn't touch it for every little bump, he waits until the fish is already hooked. Is this legal in AK? Some may argue this is unethical, and I agree if the fish are readily taking lures or bait, but for reds, I'll catch them if they are feeding or not.

  7. #7
    Member Bullelkklr's Avatar
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    Default Nope

    Your sinker must be above the hook I believe (if I am wrong I am sure that someone will correct me).

    A long time ago I used to snag carp with the sinker below the hook - it was much more effective than flossing with the sinker above the hook - much much more.

    My fishing bow is the best though - if you can see the fish!

  8. #8
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    Default Michigan rig is NOT legal!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullelkklr View Post
    Your sinker must be above the hook I believe (if I am wrong I am sure that someone will correct me).
    That reg banning the weight being rigged below (distal to) the hook was most definitely on the books 35 yrs ago. I have no reason to believe it was ever deleted, but I must admit I haven't read that most basic section of the regs in ages.

    It would be in the methods and means section.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnfish365 View Post
    Can you use what we call a Michigan rig? Snell on a yarn egg with 12" extra line, and attach sinkers past the hook?
    This sounds as though it would be an excellent method for lining Reds. In Alaska the regulation regarding the weight being in front of the fly, is ONLY FOR FLY FISHING AREAS . If you are outside of those limits, such as the Kenai, it would be a very effective method to use. Looking at the regs, it would appear as though in most places, you could even use two hooks. Hmmm, gotta look closer at the possibilities this method could bring. It might revolutionize the catch rate of Reds in the lower and middle reaches of the Kenai. You have several of us here, really thinking outside the box with this one. Thanks

  10. #10
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    Default Still NOT legal.... at least thru July 31

    5 AAC 75.023. Gear for single-hook waters

    (a) In waters designated as single-hook waters, sport fishing is permitted only as follows:


    (1) with not more than one single hook with gap between point and shank one-half inch or less;


    (2) hooks or lures (including those of standard manufacture) may not have additional weight attached to them; weights may be used only ahead of the hook or lure.

    ***

    That was cut/pasted right out of the Alaska Administrative Code.

    Since the Kenai is a single-hook stream thru July 31, the rules above would apply... the weight may not follow the hook!

    The way I read it, the rule changes on Aug 1 when treble hooks become legal for pinks and silvers.... they are by default legal for everything else as well.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    If memory services (that is debatable) The prohibition was aimed at weighted flies? I don't think that prohibition still holds. At least I haven't been checked for it. (thank goodness)
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  12. #12
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    Default Still NOT legal.... at least thru July 31

    5 AAC 75.023. Gear for single-hook waters

    (a) In waters designated as single-hook waters, sport fishing is permitted only as follows:


    (1) with not more than one single hook with gap between point and shank one-half inch or less;


    (2) hooks or lures (including those of standard manufacture) may not have additional weight attached to them; weights may be used only ahead of the hook or lure.

    ***

    That was cut/pasted right out of the Alaska Administrative Code.

    Since the Kenai is a single-hook stream thru July 31, the rules above would apply... the weight may not follow the hook!

    The way I read it, the rule changes on Aug 1 when treble hooks become legal for pinks and silvers.... they are by default legal for everything else as well.

    Save your Michigan rigs for August boys!
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  13. #13
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Default

    Thank you for the clarity. There is a small problem when using Administrative codes. It is important to go to the definitions section of the rule and read carefully, who it applies to. The definition section is usually buried at the end of the rule. Savvy folks know that Administrative law can only apply to Government and not to a free people especially when they are in conflict with our Constitution.

    Please remember that the entire basis for Administrative Law is "deception". At least that what the Administrative Law text books teach Law students.

    When one reads "ALL Persons" It is a direct prohibition of the Administrative Law rules as being to broad. That is why the true definition will always be found hidden at the back of the code.

    The poorly educated State lawyer will do his best to ignore the rules and try and convince you of otherwise and try to convince you to pay your money.

    I know that what I have written will be ignored and if not disputed. Do so at your peril.

    It has been my feelings for many years that the true plague on America and the reason so many people in America think Government has failed in it's duty to the people, is Administrative Law.

    It is truly the best jobs programme the mind of man has invented for lawyers.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  14. #14

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    I will be checking the regs extensively before fishing Kodiak. Thanks for clarification. I have been told that I have been perfecting red salmon fishing the whole time fishing MN and WI. I can't wait for the silvers kings and pinks to actually bite, though. You can cast a spinner or fly for a month here without getting a real bite, so I am excited to do it for real.

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    Default hook size?

    I called fish and game and they told me that a 3/0 hook is ok for reds on the lower keani but in the fly fish ony area buy the russian river you can only use a 3/8in gap hook ..did they change the regs thiss year?

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    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard R. Rosenberg View Post
    I've been at Bed Springs Hole on Kodiak Island when the weir at Saltery was still up and the stall stacked the reds in the hole all pointing in the same direction.

    I spent hours there watching everything.

    A line flossed in the mouth of a red would tighten ever-so-lightly that I could observe it at the end of the rod tip while see it slide through the mouth of the fish.

    I got so good at recognizing this subtle line change that I would sometimes experiment in setting the hook even though the fish was unseen and the subtle line change was seen.

    Good heavens! It actually repeatedly worked!

    Sometimes, in the right conditions, the clue is visual...

    Rosenberg/Florida

    I think I would have spent that time finding a fly that they hit.

    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ripndrag View Post
    I called fish and game and they told me that a 3/0 hook is ok for reds on the lower keani but in the fly fish ony area buy the russian river you can only use a 3/8in gap hook ..did they change the regs thiss year?
    I have seen guys use up to an 8/0 octopus hook to floss their reds. 3/0 to 4/0 is probably way more popular.

    All are legal in the lower Kenai.... otherwise you would have to ticket the entire king fleet.

    The 3/8" gap restriction has always been in place in the Russian FFO area.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  18. #18
    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    I have seen guys use up to an 8/0 octopus hook to floss their reds. 3/0 to 4/0 is probably way more popular.

    All are legal in the lower Kenai.... otherwise you would have to ticket the entire king fleet.

    The 3/8" gap restriction has always been in place in the Russian FFO area.
    And the Moose River fly fishing only area.

    Makes it hard to get a King on one of those stupid Coho Flies. I hooked 7 Kings one morning on those flies and lost them all to the hook coming out. I tied on a big ol fly and with a 2 oz sinker cast it out into the main river where the Kings roll all day long. They would hit it but when I put major pressure on the King after they would make about a 100 yard run down river the fly would come out. That was the last summer I was down there about 15 years ago. I figured if I tried that fly trick on Kings again I would use a Glo Bug hook which would hopefully hold better with the short shank.
    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

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    Default

    [quote=fishNphysician;279544]5 AAC 75.023. Gear for single-hook waters



    (1) with not more than one single hook with gap between point and shank one-half inch or less;

    so this is not correct 1/2 in hooks only thanks for clearing up this matter fishNphysician,..

  20. #20
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    Kodiak regs are different than those on the Kenai. there is no hook gap reg and there is no single hook waters during the red run. come fall all the waters turn single hook and no bait to protect the steelhead.
    Keep in mind as you travel the rules can change drastically.

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