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Thread: 9.3x57 and 9.5x56mm Anyone have experience?

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    Default 9.3x57 and 9.5x56mm Anyone have experience?

    I have been sitting out a windy , rainy day and was going through my old PO Ackley books.

    I was wondering how the 9 x 57mm, 9.3x57mm and 9.5 x 56mm Mann-Schon worked out. For anyone who has played with them...

    The last one is basically a 375 bullet on a Mauser case.

    I have played around with the 9.3x 62mm which is basically a 36.6 caliber Whelen. It is pretty nice...

    I have been sitting here trying to think of a way to have a .40 caliber round work in a 308 length, or at last a M-48 Mauser length action.

    The 40 Whelen did not work so great because there was not enough shoulder to headspace.... But what if you had a headspacing belt on a standard diameter case???????
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  2. #2

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    Try a 284 Win case which is larger in dia than a 308 case. It still has a standard .478 inch head(it's rebated) and could be necked up successfully to .411-.416 caliber. It's length being that of a 308 would let you seat bullets out of the case. Giving basically 416 Whelen ballistics, since the 284 Win case capacity is the same as the 30-06.
    It can and will fit in a M-48/mauser action, without any mods to the bolt. I would check P.O.Ackleys books, I think I've seen this widcat in one of them. I don't have my books handy right now.
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    Funny you should mention this now...

    I have just today fireformed the first brass for a nice Mauser length 40 caliber. But first the 9X57, 9.3x57 and 9x56 MS I have owned loaded and shot them a bit.

    The 9x57 Mauser is a .358 caliber gun and is a very useful caliber with all those bullets available. The 9.3x57 is pretty whimpy with 286 grain bullets and still slow with the 270 grain Speer. (I was constrained in the older rifle) and the 232 Norma bullet is a good deer load but not spicy at all. The 9.3x62 is of course a very good rifle round and will work for everything from mice to moose.

    The 9mm Mannlicher/Schoenauer round uses .355" bullets and rifle bullets in that caliber are hard to find. There is a rare bird of a 9mm Mauser which uses a .357" bullet and is technically the 9x56 M/S bumped up to the .357 diameter. The later 9x56 M/S also uses .357" bullets, if it has the x56 designation on the barrel. (?#?!) There is also an old obscure 375 Rimless which is the 9.5x56 M/S. (The 9x56 necked up to .375") The old Mauser 9x57 is a true .358" bore and I had one in a commercial Mauser of the 1930's. (OBN) A lovely little rifle. Brass for all these will be hard to find.

    There are two very good calibers that fit into M98 Mausers very well. One is the 376 Steyr (at 60mm in length, 2.362") and my .411 based on that case. This 376 Steyr case is .506" at the base and I expanded the neck slightly to .486" at the shoulder (from .473") this gives a substantial shoulder to headspace on. The max neck diameter is .441" so it has quite a bit more shoulder (.045") than the 400 Whelen or the 411 Hawk based on the '06 case or even the 9.3x62 case.

    I loaded some 300 grain FP Hornady .411" bullets for the 405 Winchester to fire form today. I used a max load for the 405 WIN, 46.0 grains of RL-7 and pushed the bullets into the leade of the rifling so the case would not move forward with the striker fall and this prevents the case from stretching at the webb. This actually wasn't necessary as the brass for the 376 will correctly headspace. This load gave 2150 fps in my 21.5" barrel. I will be able to drive this bullet to 2400 fps and beyond and hopefully hit 2350 with the 350 grain Swift A-frame. It will be a butt kicker of a bear rifle.

    That reamer is back in my custody now and could be called up on short notice. Kreiger made an excellent barrel for me in their #5 taper. The weight is just right with a slightly heavy foward feel to it. I chiseled out the barrel channel of the old Sears walnut stock to drop it in for this testing, the McM stock is over a month out.

    I put a set of NECG sights, rear aperature and screwed down front ramp with changable inserts. I guessed at (calculated) the height of the front insert and hit it on the nose as shots were only slightly low at 150 yards today. Both front and rear are adjustable so this will work well. The drop in this old stock is for the irons so I'm going to refine my routing out and bed it full length into this walnut stock and put a pad on it and have two stocks when the McMillan comes this summer.

    My rifle will handle everything from 41 mag pistol bullets to 400 grain Woodleigh softs and solids made for the 450/400 N.E. It will also duplicate the ballistics of the Nitro Express. This is going ot be a fun rifle for me and I'll order about 500 rounds of this single source Hornady 376 Steyr brass. My custom dies will be here in about a month, meanwhile I'm decapping with a decapper die, and neck sizing with the 41 mag carbide sizer, then expand the neck with the 40-70 Sharps straight expander plug screwed into the 40-65 Winchester die (that expander is for .406"-.408" bullets) My 40-70 uses .410"-.411" bullets. If you wonder why I have all these 40 caliber dies.......well I like forty caliber rifles.
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    How many rounds will fit in the magazine??? Or how many do you think...

    First I was thinking about converting a Siamese Mauser (Rimmed case shooter) using a rimmed case and a 40 caliber bullet... But you would probably just end up with something like a 40-60...

    I like the idea of a smaller diameter case for 4 or 5 rounds, and a 40 caliber bullet at around 2,200 fps for a 300 grain slug. But a case like that would basically have no shoulder. So you would need a rim or a belt.

    I would love to find the case dimensions for the old 400-375 Nitro Express rimless. It supposedly uses a number 3 shell holder...like the 30-06 size cases...

    Not like I can find any brass for that...
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    My new forty holds three down and one up the pipe. The magazine will almost take the fourth one.

    I know a South African Farmer who owns and hunts with a early twentieth century Wesly Richards Mauser rifle in "375 Rimless". He swears by it and uses it for everything worth shooting. He can flit up a rear sight leaf and hit way out yonder. This fellow came out of southern "Rhodesia" during the wars and he is one heck of a shot and believes in being truly conservative. It is his only hunting rifle and he says it is all he needs. (They are only allowed to own 5 guns over there.) It is of course a 9.5x56 (9.5x57) Mannlicher Schoenauer caliber but by British Standards it is a "375 Rimless". I think it's ballistics are a 270 grain at 2150 fps. A potent turn of the century caliber. These guns are around and can be found for sale occasionally. Most will be in the Mannlicher flat bolt 1910 model rifles.

    I think the 400/375 Nitro Express is a belted case (the very first belted case) but don't know it's dimensions. Or maybe that was the 375/400 ??

    The same problem exists with all these old British/European calibers....brass, or the lack of it.

    I really think the 376 Steyr case is a Mauser friendly cartridge. It is based on the 9.3x64 case but shortened a scant 4 millimeters. I'll try to post some pictures of my 400 cartridge and cases. I think this one is a very good rimless 40 caliber rifle. The forty caliber bullets, .411" , don't grow on trees but there are a number of makers for them. Hawk makes a good selection, Kodiak will make 300 and 330 grain bonded bullets, Woodleigh makes them and Hornady makes a 300 grain for the 405 Winnie and a 400 grain for the 450/400 N.E. and Swift ran a special run of 350 and 400 grain A-frames just for me, well me and Craig Boddington and a couple of other fellows.

    Townsend Whelen Was a proponent of the forty caliber rifles. His 400 Whelen was his own design and he wanted it for himself because he knew how effective a forty caliber gun is in the field. The writers have never done his 400 justice. His original design used the '06 case but expanded the shoulder diameter to .456" from the .441" of the original '06 case. That is a big difference and it does give adequate surface area to headspace the cartridge. I have two sets of dies one made by Redding and one by RCBS for the 400 Whelen and both of them size the shoulder diameter to .446" This is not the Whelen. Bryce Towsely (I think) did an article in the Rifleman magazine about the 400 Whelen where he researched the original papers loading dies and rifles made by Jim Howe and they were using a cartridge expanded to .456" at the shoulder.

    My design uses a shoulder diameter of .486" with the same .411" bullet and that gives a max neck diameter of .441" and adequate surface area of shoulder to make a good press fit of cartridge to chamber. I shot 220 grain Sierra 41 mag revolver bullets at 2900 fps in this little rifle and 300 grains at 2550 with room to spare. No 30-06 case based forty can do this and it ain't over yet.

    This is going to be a fun rifle to shoot and very versatile in the field. It will very likely be a one-of-a-kind but not the first for me. I guess this is just a hobby.
    Last edited by Murphy; 06-03-2008 at 14:14. Reason: Learning to spell.
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  6. #6

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    I have a Comercial Husq Swede M46 in 9.3X57. I have shot it a little, and am still working up some loads.
    I expect performance to be similiar to 358 Win. I have shot a lot of deer witht htat round.
    The 9.3 has the advantage of a little heavier bullets easily available.

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    I have a Guild rifle, made in August of 1924, in 9x57 Mauser. It weighs maybe 6 pounds, double-set triggers, and recoils with authority. The 245 grain bullets fly about 2250fps. It will do the job.
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    Maybe one of the shorter 9s or 9.3s would be a good game rifle for my oldest daughter. I was thinking about a 358 Win, but an old Mauser would be a much better gift...
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    Look for one of the early rifles, as they were made for Europeans at the turn of the century, and would fit a young woman well. And due to their light weight, would be a joy to carry, but you would have to download it. I do not think a woman would enjoy shooting the original cartridge for my rifle.
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    Allans armory also has some for sale, but the ones that he currently has in the 9s and 9.3s are small ring mausers....
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    Float Pilot

    I think your idea of the siamese mauser action has some merit. What if you ordered a set of 400WSM dies and a reamer run 348 Winchester brass through your dies trim and fireform.

    Presto you have a 400WSM rimmed.


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    The Siamese Mauser will convert to a 45-70 very nicely. So you have some length to work with...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    The Siamese Mauser will convert to a 45-70 very nicely. So you have some length to work with...
    When you throat the chamber, throat it fairly deep to take advantage of the magazine length

    Be nice if a guy could figure out how to make a dummy round before doing the chamber work so you could send it to PTG and it would cut the throat exactly to your seated bullet and your specified amount of freebore.

    Of course Murphy is the expert on this stuff I am only speculating.

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    I like the sound of that, I have a siamese action sitting in the safe waiting for an idea....

    Current project is converting an 8x56 rimmed M95 Steyr straight pull to (375) 9.5x56R

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    I have a husquavarna M46 which is a small ring M96 mauser chambered in 9.3x57mm this round was and is extremely popular in scandinavia for moose hunting. It is the ballistic match more or lessfor the 358 winchester just a little bigger bullet. I actually started my reloads with 250gr 358 win data as most of the 9.3 data is for european calibers. I am actually quite fond of this sweet little rifle hope to have the Wife thump a moose with it. I have my load data right now throwing 250 gr Accubonds and 286 TSX's.
    In the old worl scandinavian tradition they put a notch in the guns stock for every moose kill they got with their rifle. I purchased this rifle in 2005 it is a prewar 1932 M96 sporter with 21 moose notches in the stock. I hope to add a few myself with it. Not long range afair but up close and nasty it has a great reputation.

    HUNUT HARD HUNT SAFE
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    I have an original print for the specification for the 9x57mm cartridge and bullet. The bullet itself was specified as 0.3565"low to 0.3575" high.
    I bought a set of three sizing dies from www.ch4d.com that allows me to run 0.358" lead-cored bullets through them to squeeze down to 0.355". With the inevitable springback this makes it 0.356".
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

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