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Thread: Private Sales?

  1. #1

    Default Private Sales?

    On this forum I often hear how people will buy a rifle, handgun, shotgun or whatever it may be and sell it later on down the road. How would one conduct a private sale? Are there serial numbers that have to be transfered to the new owners name, or do you have to conduct the sale through a FFL? Or is it as simple as a bill of sale and a transfer of money?

    I have no intention of selling any of my firearms, basically I am just curious if that day ever came.

  2. #2
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    Default

    If you do it in state face to face all you need to do is exchange the money for the weapon.
    I always ask for ID and make a bill of sale keeping track of who I sell it to and hang on to the serial number for awhile.

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    Default

    Under Federal Law you can ship lomg guns to fellow residents of the same state through the USPS. I have done a number of private sales and don't use the services of an FFL because it was done with another resident of Alaska. Now bringing one from out of state would require the use of an FFL holder.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Default

    I'm partial to cash. I've sold a few, some to shooting buddies, some to adds in the paper.

    Allen, the 480 you sold me is still shooting great!

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    Default Registering Guns

    I am interested in this same topic.

    I have bought several used guns and was wondering if I need to transfer them to my name. I have the philosophy of only buying guns, I do not sell my guns.

    However I have not travelled with my guns on an aircraft. What kind of paper work is needed to fly with guns as checked baggage. Does it need to be registered in my name to fly with it? I know the charter planes it isn't an issue, but if I am working or hunting in bush Alaska and fly Alaska Airlines to get to the charter and need bear protection or a hunting riffle what is needed to get the gun on the commerical aircraft? Thanks

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Gun's are not registered when they are sold, per se. There is a log an FFL carries of firearms he or she sells. But asside from that, gun's aren't registered to you, and hopefully they never will be.

  7. #7
    Member Flintlock's Avatar
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    Default No registration

    There is no federal or Alaska state registration of personal firearms. This isn't California or New York. In Alaska, one may sell to anyone who is of legal age and is not a felon, meaning anyone who is legally allowed to own and possess the firearm. If you sell to a non resident, then an FFL dealer is required to ship it to another FFL dealer where that person is a resident for them to pick up. However, depending on the state, that may not pertain to rifles or shotguns, only handguns.

    If you were to sell to a resident, then no paperwork is required, although I would recommend that you write up a bill of sale with the serial number and any pertinent information and keep a copy for your records.

    Best thing to do if you have serious questions about this is to contact a lawyer as I am not one. But that is the rules as I understand them.

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    Default Registration!?

    This is a nice planet, thanks for stopping by. :-)

    I 'm amazed at some of the perceptions about guns. I don't mean to pick on you, more than one person has asked about this, and I know there is a lot of misinformation given out about the subject of "gun registration". This is a sensitive subject and I'd like to give out some good info without it becoming political.

    There are several dealers who visit this forum and I'm sure they can help out with the retail sales and FFL transfer part of it. There are many others in the know as well so if I send the wrong message here feel free to correct me.

    When an individual buy's a firearm (ATF cassification) from another individual, there is no federal requirement to fill out any paper work, or to transfer "title" of that firearm to you, the new owner. In fact there is no avenue, no system set up for such paper work. Some states do, however, have requirements for just that. This is usually driven by a "permit to purchase" law and only in certain states. If a person should, for what ever reason, desire to transfer "title" to themself, that would be through a dealer. This would be like a state to state transfer, from an individual to a dealer (FFL holder) then from that dealer to another dealer then to another individual. There would be no rhyme or reason to do this if it were a face to face transfer. But this would make a paper trail on the firearm. The ATF's FFL paper work (Form 4473) is not registration, just a means of determining if a person has a criminal record or would otherwise be ineligible to posess a firearm. (really!?)

    Dealers or FFL holders are required, as a condition of their license, to conduct NICS checks on a prospective purchaser (transferee) by calling 1-800-FBI.

    Alaska law allows an individual to transfer possesion of a long gun to anyone (I think over a certain age), even to a known felon. (That part is unusual) Alaska law does not allow an individual to transfer a handgun to a known felon. The key word here is 'known'. Most states do restrict the transfer of a handgun from one individual to another either by some state statute or require a third party (FFL holder) transfer or require a "permit to purchase", which usually involves law enforcement personnel to make back ground checks. (similar to the NICS) But few states restrict the transfer of long guns. (rifle or shotgun)

    If I have a handgun for sale and you walk up with the money, I can transfer that handgun to you after you transfer the money to me, and that is a fully legal transaction here in this state of Alaska. (The caveat is that; I believe or know you to be of legal age (whatever that is) and I don't know you to be a felon. I don't believe I am required by any Alaska statute to delve into the background of a prospective purchaser to determine if said individual is "worthy" to posess a handgun.

    Your state may be different, your mileage may vary. There is a book sold (or free) by the NRA which has all the states sales/transfer/tranportation "rules" regarding long guns and handguns. There is more than one such book and I see them advertised from time to time in gun publications.

    There is no rule or requirement by ATF or any other federal agency, or any airline, for an individual who air travels, and checks a firearm on a commercial air carrier, to provide proof of ownership or show the checked firearm is registered to said traveler. Here again there may be a state law or statute which would require the traveler to show an FID, or other form of "registration", just as there may be requirements to transport a firearm, to and from the airport, in a certain condition (I.E. disassembled and cased). If you live in one of these states, you probably know it and you should make every effort to relocate, westward.

    This is about all I can do with this, I hope I haven't given out too much misinformation. Feel free to add anything I have left out or to correct my mistakes. Thanks for watchin' and good shootin'.

    Murphy
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    Default Registering Firearms

    Hey thanks for the response and clarification. The last pistol I bought new was in Idaho during the Clinton Era and it seems I had to register it with a background check but it may of been only for the FFL Dealer Log, I don't remember. I have lived in Alaska for a few years now and love it. Thanks again for the clarification.

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    Default The basics

    As a seller, I know of no trouble you could get into by selling a handgun to anyone unless they are underage (19), including felons unless you have personal knowledge of their criminal history. I would recommend getting a good ID of the person you are selling to and keep that along with the serial number on a bill of sale in a safe place for a few years.

    As a buyer, first thing I would do is call the local PD and tell them you are looking at buying a firearm and want to check the serial number to make sure it isn't stolen. Most PD's won't give you any problem if the item isn't reported stolen. If it is, it could turn into a sticky situation (don't make the call while standing in front of the seller). Write down the serial number while inspecting the gun and check on it when/where the seller won't be alerted if it does come back stolen.

    Murphy -

    The reason you can sell a long gun to a felon is because they are not restricted from anything other than "concealable" firearms in most cases (there are exceptions).
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  11. #11
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    Default

    Rob, can you clarify the laws on selling a long to felons. It could be good info for all posters. I'm even curious. For instance I have 1 friend that has a felony DUI, good guy but can he buy a long gun? What are the stipulations?

    Thanks
    Joel

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AKmud
    As a seller, I know of no trouble you could get into by selling a handgun to anyone unless they are underage (19),

    Murphy -

    The reason you can sell a long gun to a felon is because they are not restricted from anything other than "concealable" firearms in most cases (there are exceptions).
    I think your wrong on 2 points here, mud.
    Federal law requires a person to be 21 yrs of age to legally purchase a handgun or handgun ammo. I would assume that also applies to private sales.

    Federal law also prohibits any felon from owning a firearm, maybe even to be in possesion of one. Alaska law say you may not sell a firearm to a "known" felon, thereby protecting the seller who does not have access to background check info. But legally, under federal law, you may not sell to, an a felon may not purchase, a firearm.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
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  13. #13

    Default And...

    Martentrapper is correct. To probably overclarify; You cannot sell a handgun to a non-resident, but you can sell a long gun to a non-resident, unless the laws in that person's home state say you can't, or that the non-resident can't bring a gun into their home state if purchased elsewhere. Kalifornia is great for that. A fellow came into the store the other day and wanted to take his Alaska purchased handgun into Kalifornia. He was an Alaskan resident who was going to school in Kalifornia. That is a no-no.
    An FFL holder/Gun dealer cannot register your gun for you unless it purchased from their store, run through their books, because there must be a log of where that gun came from, coming into the store's possession and then who it goes to. As was stated, there is no provision in Alaska for registering a gun you purchased NOT from a licensed dealer. If you have a gun transferred to a dealer from another state TO a dealer in Alaska who is receiving it for you, then it must be registered at that FFL holder's place of business, even if it was formerly registered to you at another dealer's place of business. There is also the case where people think that if you have a gun sent to you IN CARE of a dealer, that the dealer can just hand it over to you as long as you are a resident of the state you are picking it up in. Not so. Again, if the gun is in the store when you pick it up, it must be registered to you again.

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    Default I think your wrong on 2 points here...

    Martentrapper,

    The federal law states a felon may not be in possesion of ....It has no reference to an innocent, non felon individual selling his property. The federal law is about possesion

    But the question was about laws of the state of Alaska....these laws do not prohibit a felon from possessing a rifle or shotgun, only a handgun. Specifically Alaska law does prohibit the transfer of a handgun to a known felon. Most states have some restriction on transfer and possesion of handguns.

    I believe AKmud was talking about Alaska law, also.

    mauserboy,

    I'm sure you know this but the word "registration" is really not what is going on when an FFL holder makes a transfer. A gun comes in a gun goes out. Records must show from whom and to whom and did transferee pass the FBI NICS background. This is just record keeping...right? You're right about the non-resident and about any gun coming to any dealer...it has to go through the system...more 4473's. Thanks for helping out guys.

    Murphy
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default

    18 U.S.C 922 prohibits anyone from knowingly selling a firearm to a known felon, illegal alien, a person under indictment for or has been convicted of a crime in which they were inprisoned for a term exceeding 1 year, fugitive from justice, drug addict, adjudicated mentally defective. This includes non-licensee's. The key words are KNOWING or having REASONABLE cause to know.

  16. #16

    Default semantics

    Some of this is semantics. The records that are kept are available any time BATF wants to view them. The dealer must have them available. So, in practice, if not in technicalities, it is registration, since the gun is registered to the buyer, the first time. The dealer ends up doing BATF's record keeping. Also, if a person is convicted of a felony that COULD put him in jail for a year and a day, even if he/she does not serve one day, the laws about gun ownership apply, be it a handgun, rifle or shotgun. Believe me, if you are a convicted felon, especially if it is a violent felony, you have a problem if you are discovered with a firearm. If you have been convicted of a non-violent felony, you can often appeal in regards to owning a firearm and can sometimes be able to regain firearms ownership rights.

  17. #17
    Moderator AKmud's Avatar
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    Default I confused myself....

    Quote Originally Posted by AKmud
    As a seller, I know of no trouble you could get into by selling a handgun to anyone unless they are underage (19), including felons unless you have personal knowledge of their criminal history.
    What I meant is if you sell a handgun to a stranger, typically you aren't going to ask if they are a felon, and they probably wouldn't admit it anyway. Therefore, since you honestly don't know their criminal history, you aren't going to be in trouble for selling to a felon (if the buyer turns out to be one...). If you are aware that the buyer is a felon then you could get into hot water.

    Thanks for clarifying about the Alaska law Murphy, I'm not up on all the federal regs.
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  18. #18
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    Default Straight out of the AS

    Sec. 11.61.200. Misconduct involving weapons in the third degree.
    (a) A person commits the crime of misconduct involving weapons in the third degree if the person
    (1) knowingly possesses a firearm capable of being concealed on one's person after having been convicted of a felony or adjudicated a delinquent minor for conduct that would constitute a felony if committed by an adult by a court of this state, a court of the United States, or a court of another state or territory;
    (2) knowingly sells or transfers a firearm capable of being concealed on one's person to a person who has been convicted of a felony by a court of this state, a court of the United States, or a court of another state or territory;
    AKmud
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  19. #19

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    Holy Cow!
    Reading all the brick-a-brack about buying and selling, the recording of serial numbers, the requirements to report this and that and to what federal or state authority........have we been hoodwinked into a subliminal form of firearm registration????
    Any how, my preference is to sell via consignment with reputable dealers. That way I'm not advertising what I have in my home, I don't have to put up with the "looky-loos", and no door step price haggling goes on. The product gets greater exposure to the most likely prospective buyer and I'm supporting my local dealer with the business.
    When buying, I visit the same dealers, much like a trip to the candy store for a kid. Gives me a chance to see what's on the rack that may be of interest and, most occasions, offer opportunity to share conversation with some of the finest company one could ever hope to meet.
    JWB

  20. #20
    Member 8x57 Mauser's Avatar
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    Arrow Little more research

    AKMud, thanks for the research.

    I would also add the offense of Misconduct Involving Weapons in the fourth degree, which includes "knowingly sell[ing] a firearm or a defensive weapon to a person under 18 years of age."

    So we have Alaska law operating on those who posess and, to a lesser extent, those who sell. I submit that the smart seller of a firearm should write up that bill of sale other posters have mentioned and ask on it whether the buyer has been convicted of a felony. Have the buyer sign it. You'd rather be safe than sorry. The legal fees defending yourself are no fun, even if you're ultimately found not guilty...

    Others here appear to know about the federal law, about which I know nearly nothing. Except for this: it doesn't just bar felons from buying guns, it also applies to those who've been convicted of a domestic violence offense. That includes misdemeanor DV.

    If you're going to sell a firearm (I myself dream of having the money to buy more firearms), remember that the most restrictive provisions apply - so where the state says under 18 is too young and the feds say under 19 - I'd make sure the buyer is at least 19 years old.

    Of course I'm not a lawyer and can't give you legal advice and it's your responsiblity to know the law, and disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer.

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