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Thread: new 1911

  1. #1

    Default new 1911

    The 1911 has never really been my forte! I own a Kimber Stainless Target model and a Dan Wesson Pointman 7. The Kimber is still a virgin and the Pointman has had maybe 500 rounds through it.

    Today I stopped in at the local gun shop and the owner and a patron were messing with a handgun. I didn't pay much attention until they asked me for my opinion. What is it I said and the reply was a Commodore 1911 made by S.A.M.. I said huh? A what? Most likely junk I suspect!

    Well I took the gun and walked over to the bright sun shining in the window for a better look. The gun was very tight, it had a real nice beavertail on the grip safety, the fit and finish were good. In fact the finish was teflon. The trigger and hammer were skeletonized in a nice fashion. It had both an extended safety and slide release. The trigger was very much on par with a Colt Commander that was on display in the shop. It was even wearing a brand new Pachmayr Signature wrap around grip. I broke the gun down and the inside was a nice as the outside. In fact we took the Colt apart and if anything I would give the edge to the S.A.M.

    I looked at the owner and asked how much? His reply was $300 and with that you get a spare magazine.

    We took the gun,a box of Remington 230 gr hardball and a "B-3" target and went out back. @ 25 yards my first 7 shots all went in the black(shooting off a picknick table for a rest, no sand bags etc).

    Well he got the three hundred bucks and the good Governors portion and I got the gun. I played with it for an hour tonight and it is pure 1911 in that all of the accessories made for the high dollar 1911's will fit on this one. Not that I plan to add anything! I think I'll just shoot it a bunch and then put it in the glove box!

    If your looking for a very decent little 45 that won't bust the bank I highly recommend this little cheaper!

    They are made in the Philippines and the price reflection has a lot to do with $4/hr labor as opposed to $20/hr. However the quality is there!

  2. #2
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    Default More about S.A.M. guns

    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    The 1911 has never really been my forte! I own a Kimber Stainless Target model and a Dan Wesson Pointman 7. The Kimber is still a virgin and the Pointman has had maybe 500 rounds through it.

    Today I stopped in at the local gun shop and the owner and a patron were messing with a handgun. I didn't pay much attention until they asked me for my opinion. What is it I said and the reply was a Commodore 1911 made by S.A.M.. I said huh? A what? Most likely junk I suspect!

    Well I took the gun and walked over to the bright sun shining in the window for a better look. The gun was very tight, it had a real nice beavertail on the grip safety, the fit and finish were good. In fact the finish was teflon. The trigger and hammer were skeletonized in a nice fashion. It had both an extended safety and slide release. The trigger was very much on par with a Colt Commander that was on display in the shop. It was even wearing a brand new Pachmayr Signature wrap around grip. I broke the gun down and the inside was a nice as the outside. In fact we took the Colt apart and if anything I would give the edge to the S.A.M.

    I looked at the owner and asked how much? His reply was $300 and with that you get a spare magazine.

    We took the gun,a box of Remington 230 gr hardball and a "B-3" target and went out back. @ 25 yards my first 7 shots all went in the black(shooting off a picknick table for a rest, no sand bags etc).

    Well he got the three hundred bucks and the good Governors portion and I got the gun. I played with it for an hour tonight and it is pure 1911 in that all of the accessories made for the high dollar 1911's will fit on this one. Not that I plan to add anything! I think I'll just shoot it a bunch and then put it in the glove box!

    If your looking for a very decent little 45 that won't bust the bank I highly recommend this little cheaper!

    They are made in the Philippines and the price reflection has a lot to do with $4/hr labor as opposed to $20/hr. However the quality is there!
    What!? You own a Kimber Target and a D.W. Pointman and 1911s are not your forte? Please tell me what you consider to be your SERIOUS firearms. But I digress.

    I Googled the references in your post and found:

    Shooters Arms Manufacturing
    Shooters Guns and Ammunition Corporation

    545 SGAC Building, EDSA corner North Road, Cubao
    (near corner of P. Tuazon Avenue)
    721-0404, 726-0202, 725-6363
    http://www.shootersarms.com.ph

    Apparantly they retail several makes of firearms as well those of their own manufacture.

    They describe themselves (and their guns)
    Begin Quote:
    Established in 1992, SHOOTERS ARMS MANUFACTURING (S.A.M.) INC. is engaged in the manufacture and sales of world class firearms.

    S.A.M. uses 4140 billets for its slide and barrel. While its frame and other parts are made from 4140 casting.

    Its international sales operation is managed by Rhone Malcolm M. De Leon. The production department is handled by Richard C. Yuson. While the assembly line department is supervised by Jesus Rey C. Yuson.

    S.A.M envisions itself to be in the frontline of firearms manufacturing industry in Asia.
    End Quote

    I have not delved into the site more deeply than that, but one item that caught my eye was that the slide, barrel and frame are all made from 4140 steel. When two steels of the same hardness slide against one another, wear can be uneven with "galling". Dissimilar steels wear also, but stay smoother because the softer wears against the harder. I understand AMT guns had the same "same-hardness" characteristic. This is relieved by using a lubricant that sticks better than the typical gun oil. My memory has failed me, though. I can't remember the brand just now.

    I would research the steel and maybe consult a gunsmith before I put any +p rounds through it.

    All those things being said, I would jump on that gun with both feet! As you did. Congratulations.

    Lost Sheep (Larry)

  3. #3
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    Default 1911 slide and frame metals

    The galling of similar metals on the slide and frame came up with the introduction of stainless steel guns. Stainless steels in general tended to be more prone to galling than the older carbon steel alloys and manufacturer's found they could prevent the galling problem by making the slide and frame out of different alloys. If I recall S&W had some similar issues with their Model 60 when it was in development.

    I don't recall seeing that carbon steel alloys like 4140 ever had any problems with galling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Sheep View Post

    S.A.M. uses 4140 billets for its slide and barrel. While its frame and other parts are made from 4140 casting.

    but one item that caught my eye was that the slide, barrel and frame are all made from 4140 steel. When two steels of the same hardness slide against one another, wear can be uneven with "galling". Dissimilar steels wear also, but stay smoother because the softer wears against the harder. I understand AMT guns had the same "same-hardness" characteristic. This is relieved by using a lubricant that sticks better than the typical gun oil. My memory has failed me, though. I can't remember the brand just now.

    Lost Sheep (Larry)
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  4. #4
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    Default Similar/Dissimilar metals and galling

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    The galling of similar metals on the slide and frame came up with the introduction of stainless steel guns. Stainless steels in general tended to be more prone to galling than the older carbon steel alloys and manufacturer's found they could prevent the galling problem by making the slide and frame out of different alloys. If I recall S&W had some similar issues with their Model 60 when it was in development.

    I don't recall seeing that carbon steel alloys like 4140 ever had any problems with galling.
    tvfinak (or anyone),

    When I first learned about the galling between slide and frame rails (due to using similar metals/hardness) I was told ordinary steels did not have the same problem because there was a wide variety of ordinary carbon steels available for firearms, but there were only a couple of stainless steels (at the time) suitable for slides and frames. I assumed that the same phenomenon would be exhibited by ordinary steels if they were made of the same formula/hardness. The mechanism of the galling wear was that any given spot where the two parts of similar metals meet might be every so slightly harder than a spot on the other piece and vice versa. So, at one point, the slide may wear and at an adjacent, mating spot, the frame would wear, resulting in high and low spots which would eventually catch on each other. Whereas, if one steel is definitely softer than the other, the softer will wear while the harder stays pretty much as it was machined, straight, flat and true.

    But I have no other support for my conclusion than that. So, I could be wrong. Does anyone have any source I could on which I could rely better?

    Of course, if the 4140 steel of the frame is peened (cold worked) or quenched to be harder, the whole question goes away leaving me unsure whether or not I need more education.

    Thanks,

    Lost Sheep (Larry)

  5. #5

    Default

    I just popped off an email to S.A.M's Elpresidenta, Mr De Leon.

    I asked him to explain what his company does to ensure that premature wear isn't an issue since the slide and frame are both of the same alloy! Tempering process etc.

    Will let you know.

    He might be thinking "Dumb gringo no to get my trade secrets". We'll see!

  6. #6

    Default SAM Commadore 1911

    Did some checking and found out that this gun got great reviews. Where did you purchase it?

  7. #7
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    Default slide and frame galling

    Carbon and stainless steels generally behave different in maching and wearing / friction. The carbon in CS generally makes it machne and wear in a smoother manner while stainless is more prone to sticking, tearing, and galling. A good example is the high carbon steel rotors on your disk brakes - they wear very smoothly and are easy to face or machine if needed. Stainless steel tends to be harder to machine smoothly as it tned to "rear" away from the workpiece instead of coming off in smooth chips or turnings. You can readily find this information in any machist handbook or on line.

    Galling occures where the two surfaces "weld" to each other from the heat of friction and pressure. The welded surfaces then tear apart leaving one surface with a depression and a raised portion from the removed metal on the other surface - obviously not a good thing!

    I bet if you check the frame and slides of the orginal 1911s you will find they are very similar materials and hardness yet I've never seen any signs of galling on one.

    I don't think galling on 4140 steel will be an issue - that alloy is quite common and fromulated to be easy to machine amoung other properties.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Sheep View Post
    tvfinak (or anyone),

    When I first learned about the galling between slide and frame rails (due to using similar metals/hardness) I was told ordinary steels did not have the same problem because there was a wide variety of ordinary carbon steels available for firearms, but there were only a couple of stainless steels (at the time) suitable for slides and frames. I assumed that the same phenomenon would be exhibited by ordinary steels if they were made of the same formula/hardness. The mechanism of the galling wear was that any given spot where the two parts of similar metals meet might be every so slightly harder than a spot on the other piece and vice versa. So, at one point, the slide may wear and at an adjacent, mating spot, the frame would wear, resulting in high and low spots which would eventually catch on each other. Whereas, if one steel is definitely softer than the other, the softer will wear while the harder stays pretty much as it was machined, straight, flat and true.

    But I have no other support for my conclusion than that. So, I could be wrong. Does anyone have any source I could on which I could rely better?


    Lost Sheep (Larry)
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  8. #8

    Default

    alaskamaddog, I purchased it from a local dealer here in Iowa. He picked it up "as new" in a horse trade with another dealer.

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    Default Galling galls me.

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Galling occures where the two surfaces "weld" to each other from the heat of friction and pressure. The welded surfaces then tear apart leaving one surface with a depression and a raised portion from the removed metal on the other surface - obviously not a good thing!
    Thanks, tvfinak,

    Now that you mention it, I think I remember the "welding" or sticking tendency as well as the "chipping" or tearing phenomenon being mentioned in the same explanation I had gotten about the similar hardnesses. I had forgotten those details. I can only learn so much at one sitting, I guess.

    Back then, there was no internet and I did not have incentive to go find a textbook on machining or materials science. God bless the internet. It is so much easier to learn stuff now.

    Lost Sheep (Larry)

  10. #10
    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    I just popped off an email to S.A.M's Elpresidenta, Mr De Leon.

    I asked him to explain what his company does to ensure that premature wear isn't an issue since the slide and frame are both of the same alloy! Tempering process etc.

    Will let you know.

    He might be thinking "Dumb gringo no to get my trade secrets". We'll see!
    Any news/reply yet?

  11. #11

    Default

    I actually emailed him twice and both got ignored!

  12. #12
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    Default

    I am absolutely certain there has never been an issue of premature wear or galling between any 1911 slide and frame from any manufacturer. This ancient design doesn't even require exact micro CNC maching but it will function so well when the tollerances are as close as modern machines can make them. Carbon steel and Aluminum will gall if tollerances and lack of proper lubricant are a problem but steel to steel, stainless or CM or Nickel steel or cast iron won't be an issue with this 1911 slide and frame. I have some guns with forty thousand rounds through them and they show so very little wear. I have cast frames, milled steel frames and slide, stainless and carbon, even a 1970's vintage alloy frame Colt commander, never had a problem. Durability is the 1911's middle name.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  13. #13
    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
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    Default

    I thought durability was Glock's middle name....Oh and the Ruger Redhawk as well . Thanks for the info Murphy!

  14. #14
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    Default I've got one, sort of...

    Mine's a High Standard 1911-A1. Made by the same folks, with a different name on the slide. Nice pistol. No frills. Basic plain Jane 1911, with the exception that it's tighter than any other Colt Gov't model I've picked up, and it gobbles up everything I've pushed into the magazine, so far. I've always had a problem with stovepipe jams, short stroking the slide, and resultant FTF, because of my smaller than average hands. This gun's frame/grip combination fits me really well, and I've yet to have an FTF or jam with it.
    Got a case, two magazines, and a fired case for Massa Two Chits, should I ever move there...
    It's not in the same class as the S&W Doug Koenig gun I also have in the drawer, but I don't take the Smith into the desert for bopping bunnies and song dogs through the sagebrush and lava beds, either!
    Enjoy!

  15. #15

    Default The first time I heard of the term galling was

    years back when AMT was developing the stainless steel Hardballer...In the article that I read they were talking about a galling problem they were haveing...That was years ago and I can't remember much else..P.S I just read where Lost Sheep made a similar statement..I am sure that what AMT was refering to was the frame and slide surface, perhaps it was the steel they were using or the manufactureing process..

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