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Thread: Maps and other phenomena

  1. #1
    Sponsor offshore's Avatar
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    Smile Maps and other phenomena

    Alright. I'm starting to get used to the big wakes coming over the fuel dock, the dangerous disregard for the rules of the road, towing those who have run out of fuel, picking up garbage on every beach, watching deer hunters load up their wives, kids, and unknowing friends in boats made for small rivers, and the pointless and endless chit chat on the VHF (thought at first that I was picking up a skip from truckers in the deep south), but I just can not handle someone calling a nautical chart a MAP. Even more painful is knowing that if you have maps on board, you probably have ropes too. Just kills me....

    Chapmans is in every bookstore, costs pennies compared to what a boat costs, and IMO should be required reading for anyone on the salt.

    I spoke with a guy yesturday with two jet skies--out of fuel 10 miles out. The third jet ski made it in, but the wind was blowing 30 in Whittier and he didn't want to go back out. The others had no idea about the conditions and no way of communicating. This could have been a very bad situation if the weather wasn't perfect everywhere but within a mile of Whittier.

    My message isn't to offend. Be safe, have the utmost respect for the water (and the land for that matter), and have some courtesy for other boaters. I'm getting a sense that many go out and expect that they are entitled to help if something happens. This logic, aside from being stupid, will get someone killed.

  2. #2
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    Default darwin was right

    This is so Darwinian----why don`t we just legislate intelligence and give government another funded position???

  3. #3
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    Default Good points!

    Offshore:
    You make some excellent points! Boater's continually demonstrate the need for education. In the past 10 years, our Search and Rescue records for PWS consistently show that DIW (Dead In the Water) accounts for nearly 200 cases - 5 times the number of the next closest category of SAR. These numbers are consistent across the state. We know that most boaters' difficulties are 'self-inflicted' and education is the best way to avoid problems on the water. Alaska is one of only a few states that does not have some form of mandatory education for boaters. I would be very curious to see how many forum members have taken boater's education classes; perhaps someone could talk me through setting up an online poll? Thanks! Mike

  4. #4

    Default Boating safety class You tell me when you're teaching one in the Valley

    and a pile of folks will be there.
    Palmer CGA is planning one for the fall. But that is kinda closing the barn door after the cow is loose. Not that I am un appreciative of the fine folks from Palmer & the Coast Guard.
    So, when and where is the Mat-Su class?
    Rob

  5. #5
    Member Tolman24's Avatar
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    Default On line

    I took a couple of different online courses. I believe one may have been from CG Aux. They took me about a week to take in my spare time and included a test at the end. Upon passing the test I could print out a certificate that actually could be used for an insurance reduction. I learned a lot about "rules of the water". I think an "in person" class would be better but it was better than nothing. I would recommend it.
    Last edited by Tolman24; 04-25-2008 at 10:14. Reason: spelling

  6. #6

    Default YEp, the online course is on the to do list

    reading John Vigor's book The Practical Mariner's Book of Knowledge, a Book on docking and two on coastal navigation. I want to learn more.
    I think I saw your boat July 07 at Whittier? We were the "crazy people" in the 18' Zodiak. Moved up to a 22' Ocean Pro.

  7. #7

    Talking Growing Up

    It takes some time to grow from a pollywog to a shellbacker!
    We never really grow up, we only learn
    how to act in public

  8. #8

    Smile Just A Silly Idea...

    My brother in law and I took the boating class years back because we wanted to be smarter, but really we love boats and wanted to be emersed in them as much as possible. It made the winter go by faster and got us excited about the summer ahead. Here is an idea: The big harbors that are gateways to blue water require a flash of the ID card when launching. That ID card is what you receive after taking the boating course. Inland waters I can see would not be fesiable for that, (with all the easy ramps and nonramps that exist for one to venture into lakes and rivers.) The places that could implement it would help increase the "smartness factor" on the water, places that can't will just have to remain the same. (Four wheeler safety class when you purchase it...Boat safety class when you purchase anything from a dealer over so many feet or horsepower...Drivers ed when you turn sixteen...Pilots license...etc.) I know it sounds like a government intrusion and I don't like that, so maybe a incentive type thing like the insurance discount that is in place now for taking the class. OR A DISCOUNT ON THE LAUNCH FEES FOR TAKING A BOATING SAFETY COURSE!!! Just some ideas to get the juices flowing...

  9. #9

    Talking Oh good, let's give up more rights to the government

    No thanks, How about the folks we pay to take care of things offer more training?
    "wanted to be emersed in them as much as possible"
    I thought the idea was to NOT get "emersed."
    More government regulation, mandated licenses, more enforcement, fees, fines, taxes, surcharges, bureaucrats. is not what I want. It's a personal responsibility issue, not a let's grow government bigger and give the bureaucrats more power issue.

  10. #10
    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by offshore View Post
    ... Even more painful is knowing that if you have maps on board, you probably have ropes too. Just kills me....
    Hey. I have maps loaded in both my chartplotter and handheld GPS. I also have charts loaded in both of them. I also have both paper charts and paper maps on board. Just because someone has maps on a boat doesn't mean they don't know what a line or a rode is. Besides, why does there need to be a different language spoken on a boat/ship/yacht? It has always seemed a little elitist to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you canít tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

  11. #11

    Thumbs down Even more painful is knowing

    I can not beleive that words are of more importance.
    I have a
    MODU License, that is a OFFSHORE USCG issued document, now some one who is so worried about pure words used in the very correct terms has to know what that license is. Any one can look it up on the web!
    Also have a Able Body Seamen, Ballast Control Engineering Cert, & 5ton Master and I told some one to buy 300' of 1/2" ROPE.

    Not all people who have boats and call a chart a map are fools. It's like the guy who said "If you where a serious boater you wouldn't have a Bayliner"

    The righteous telling folks they are fools sure don't fit into the right to enjoy. Should someone who said they have a rope on board or own a Bayliner sink there boat and let the righteous have the water?

  12. #12
    Member bhollis's Avatar
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    Default

    Is nautical terminology elitist/superfluous? Well maybe some of it is. Is there any meaningful difference between a rope and a line? Or between a deck and a floor? Maybe not. But there are some nautical terms that really don't have any non-nautical (terrestrial?) counterparts. For example, cleats, bollards, fairleads, gunnels, etc., etc.

    Is there any meaningful difference between starboard/port and right/left? I would argue yes, since right and left are relative terms depending on which way you're facing, and port and starboard are not.

    How about maps vs. charts? Any meaningful difference? Again, I would argue yes. Maps are pictorial representations of surface features, be they roads, cities, lakes, rivers or even political subdivisions. Charts, on the other hand, are not primarily concerned with depicting surface features; instead their primary purpose is to aid in navigation, and they typically only include surface features that serve that purpose.

    In any case, however you feel about the utility of nautical jargon, probably the best argument for knowing at least the basics is that when you're out there on the water, you're going to have to communicate with other boaters, or the Coast Guard or others that are going to be using this language. And if you don't understand what they're saying, that could be dangerous.

  13. #13
    Sponsor offshore's Avatar
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    Default you have to be kidding, I was...

    Did you miss the smiley face? I was making a joke with the nomenclature to make a point about the fact that a lot of people running around in boats have no respect for the water or others around them. They also have very little knowledge about operating a boat. As you can get a license in a week now, and I know of licensed captains that couldnít tell you port from starboard a month after the class, paperwork alone doesnít make a waterman. I'm merely suggesting that they take the time to learn a little before they head out.

    Iím not interested in arguing for the sake of arguing. There is plenty of that on other posts. The fact is that a swarm of boats attacks the Sound every weekend literally leaving a wake of destruction in their paths. Ever wonder why so many people in Whittier, Cordova, and Chenega donít welcome people from the city? Iíve had people try to race me, follow me, steal stuff off the boat, charge in and shoot while watching deer and bears on the beach, etc., etc. Last year a 65 year old friend was stepping off of my boat at the Whittier fuel dock when a three foot wake hit the boat. There is no reason for this, itís just complete disrespect for others. Spend a weekend cleaning toilet paper off of a beach if you donít believe me. My point is that it would be nice if people would take some time to learn how to do things the right way. Someday someone will be killed by doing something completely stupid. I'm not trying to be an "elitist" in any way, just suggesting ways to make it better for all of us.

    Iím sure someone will find a way to turn this into an argument. Have at it. Iím done.

  14. #14
    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Default

    First, I never called anybody an elitist. If my use of that term offended you, you may want to ask yourself why. What I said was that the need for a different language to be used [exclusively] on boats seemed elitist to me.

    Second, there will always be people with no respect for the "rules of the road", in a boat, in a car or standing in line at the DMV. There will always be people with absolutely no situational awareness, even after someone tries to explain to them what's going on. These people are a danger to themselves and to others, and repeating the same information over and over to them rarely does any good. So then, it's an individual's responsibility to protect themselves from these people by being alert and acting defensively, on the road, on the water, in line at the DMV, or wherever else they may be. In a perfect world, enforcement of the rules would remove these people from the situations they put themselves in before anybody got hurt. This is not a perfect world.

    But, there are also people out there that are simply ignorant of the rules and of the terminology. There is no recreational boating license requirement in this state, and most recreational boaters don't put in enough time at the helm to keep themselves familiar with the terminology. That being said, don't you think that using all those nautical terms might be a little intimidating to the average recreational boater? Don't you think that harping on someone about whether the anchor is connected to a rope, line, or rode may just distract them from learning the proper way to SET that anchor? Or that belittling someone who calls a chart a map might keep them from asking questions about even the basics of good navigation?

    Instead, try being helpful. With the exception of the somewhat snide reference to Chapman's, there is no helpful information in the original post, just complaints and derogatory remarks. How about a link to the USCG "Rules of the Road", or, if you insist on using them, a link to a glossary of nautical terms? Maybe give people a reminder that no-wake zones are in place for their safety and the safety of others, like those who may be transferring gas at the nearby fuel dock.

    Hey, if there were a VHF conversation that started with..."Help, help, help! Our anchor rope got tangled in our propeller and we drifted into a rock that wasn't on the map. Now we're leaning to the right and waves are splashing over the side of the boat...", I don't think the Coast guard, or any other boat out there would reply..."I don't understand you. Could you please repeat using the proper nautical terms?".



    The bottom line? Nobody wants to see anybody get hurt out on the water, not even those who don't know the danger they may be putting themselves in. But, how the more experienced captains handle these situations can make a big difference.
    1. Don't look down your nose at those who may not be using proper nautical terms, either speak their language (which you know), or help them learn to speak yours.
    2. Don't get irritated, instead, try to be heplful when dealing with someone who seems less experienced than you.
    3. If you see something dangerous, don't ignore it, report it.
    And for the record, a chart, by definition, IS a map. Sheesh...

    American Heritage Dictionary
    Chart: A map showing coastlines, water depths, or other information of use to navigators.
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you canít tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

  15. #15

    Default Answer MODU

    Mobile Offshore Drilling Unit
    Smiley face or not to Say "It kills me" is a slam. I seriously dought if anyone who has a boat knows 100% of ever term. Or could describe the different functions on a ship. Bosun Mate, Able Body seaman.
    I would rather teach some one how to set an anchor the right way, or read a MAP to find there way that say your killing me not knowing it's a chart, Anchor Rode is the system made up of Anchor/Chain/Rope or Line.
    Capstans are rated for the size of ROPE they pull.
    Gee guess those words do creep into the boating world.
    Ok well maybe it's a lesson in using the words correctly or maybe not using them to be-little someone else.
    Words are more powerful than the sword, unless your trying to cut your Anchor Rode!

  16. #16
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    Default Finding a Boating class in Alaska

    Visit http://a170.uscgaux.info/d17_pe_page.htm to find a scheduled boating class in your area.

    If there isn't one scheduled soon, take America's Boating Course on-line. You can find it at http://www.americasboatingcourse.com/. That will at least get you started in the right direction and some insurance companies offer up to an 18% discount.

    You might also consider joining the flotilla closest to you. As a member you can receive advanced training including boat crew, boat coxswain, weather, search & rescue, coastal navigation, communications and a whole lot more as a part of your annual dues.

  17. #17

    Default Okay guys

    I am by definition " a beginner" I learned already what a Rode is, it is a rope. But I was informed it is only a rope when it is on the spool, Once cut off and it has a use, it is a line! I am not going to be able to absorb every new term overnight. I have watched golf for years, I have to play it to learn it. I am new to the world of boating on the ocean. So thanks, I put the nautical terms site in my favorites and will brush up a little each day. I have the Rules of the road, all those different bouys can be confusing but I think I am getting it. Most of it seems like common sense. Duh, slow down in the harbor. Hmmm, in this whole debate it seems that is what you are all talking about. Common sense. Now I wanna try this without lookin' Mayday, mayday, mayday, this the Andria Dori, our anchor line got caught in our outdrive and we hit an unchartered rock we are listing to the starboard and waves are breaking over the gunwall. Did i get it! Learning is a process, common decency is what your mamma should have taught you, when in doubt, if it would embarass her, DON'T DO IT! This forum has been awesome for a newbie like me and I appriciate those who take the time to help me along, Thanks! If I panic and we have a problem it is good to know you will still understand me

  18. #18

    Default Map vs Chart

    Chart (def)n: A map showing coastlines, water depths, or other information of use to navigators.

    Not to have any mixing of words, but a chart is just a map. Had this arguement many times in the jet with my navigators. I always highlighted the fact that I am a pilot flying with the map and that the chart is a map for use by navigators. Just a simple point.

  19. #19

    Default The Law Of The Sea

    A rode is the rope and chain that hold a boat to an anchor.
    One buys rope, or cordage. When one brings it aboard a boat and puts it to use, then it becomes a sheet or a halyard or a longline or a rode or a dockline or a breastline, etc.

    These terms evolved because A) a boat at sea is a world unto itself B) there is a military necessity to convey an exact order in few words, especially when the wind's roaring so loud that people have to scream to be heard a few feet away, C) the old mariners felt superior to landsmen in almost every way and they needed a code to reassure themselves of that.



    Every profession, indeed every pursuit, has its own language though. Part of knowing it is the language involved.
    Salty seamen try to do things the right way; lubbers don't, and sometimes get caught in the bight because of it.


  20. #20
    Mark
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by offshore View Post
    Alright. I'm starting to get used to the big wakes coming over the fuel dock, the dangerous disregard for the rules of the road, towing those who have run out of fuel, picking up garbage on every beach, watching deer hunters load up their wives, kids, and unknowing friends in boats made for small rivers, and the pointless and endless chit chat on the VHF (thought at first that I was picking up a skip from truckers in the deep south), but I just can not handle someone calling a nautical chart a MAP. Even more painful is knowing that if you have maps on board, you probably have ropes too. Just kills me....

    Chapmans is in every bookstore, costs pennies compared to what a boat costs, and IMO should be required reading for anyone on the salt.

    I spoke with a guy yesturday with two jet skies--out of fuel 10 miles out......
    Would a guy (seaman?) who demands proper maritime protocol when describing charts and lines get upset when his poor spelling is pointed out?

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