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  1. #1
    Member hntr's Avatar
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    Default Good One

    [FONT='Lucida Sans Unicode','sans-serif']Thoughts on carrying.....[/FONT][FONT='Lucida Sans Unicode','sans-serif']

    I don't carry a gun to kill people.
    I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

    I don't carry a gun to scare people.
    I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

    I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid.
    I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

    I don't carry a gun because I'm evil.
    I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

    I don't carry a gun because I hate the government.
    I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

    I don't carry a gun because I'm angry.
    I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.

    I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.
    I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

    I don't carry a gun because I'm a cowboy.
    I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

    I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man.
    I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

    I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
    I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

    I don't carry a gun because I love it.
    I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

    Police Protection is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves.
    Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.

    Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass kickin'.


    "Be who you are and say what you feel....Because those that matter....don't mind...And those that mind....don't matter. "[/FONT]

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    I agree with everything up til the point you said police don't stop or prevent crime. I would hate to see this country with out cops for one day. It is a tough job. People hate you when your around and enforcing laws but scream when your not.

  3. #3

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    I can justify the need to carry a firearm with one thought. " A gun is a lot like a condom when you need one its too late to go get one if you left it home"

    Ps I am ex LE so I have seen firsthand what is out there on the streets. I don't leave the house without "protection" and go to sleep with my colt within arms reach.

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    I'd even go one further and say that police take the duty and responsibility that we have to each other away (intentionally or not). Every concealed carry class I have ever sat through has encouraged permit holders not to get involved in situations that do not directly involve you and yours. Let alone lay citizens without a permit. The attitude of our society regarding law enforcement encourages just the kind of apathy we see, to the point that crowds will watch a cold blooded murder in open daylight in a park and do nothing. Law enforcement usually shows up after the fact.

    Instead of doing something useful most people "doing something" is dialing 911 on their cell phone while they stand around aghast. Society has been neutered by the protectionism of the nanny state.

    If all citizens saw their responsibility and duty to each other, first off they would all go armed (an armed society is a polite society) and secondly they would all act to enforce the law. Call that wild west if you will, but so be it, I would much prefer that wild west to the apathy and dependence we see now.

    Police have never done me any good and I am a very conscientious law abiding citizen. The one time I called them was to document a case of a sexual nature involving children. I called them as process servers to document and start a paper trail on the offender. That's what the police are best at.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

  5. #5

    Default Carry

    My old grandpa to me son," there comes a time in every mans life when he stops bustin' knuckles and starts bustin' caps and usually it's when he becomes too old to take an A== whoopin".
    Our society has been neutered by litagation and lives in fear of reprisals for being good samaritians. Even if your not guilty your wallet IS.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

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    Member hntr's Avatar
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    Default Police

    I am Ex LE as well and It is true that if you need a police officer for an armed confrontation it is probably going to be too late for a cop to get there and up to you to defend yourself. If you are not prepared for the confrontation the police are only going to investigate the scene and hopefully track down the perpetrator.

    I don't only think it is a right (priveledge rather in this country which is against the constitution in my opinion) to carry a gun for protection I think it is everyone's responsibility to know how to and be willing to protect themselves.

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    Default Raingull

    Well, we certainly will not agree on a lot of issues. I am all for the wild west and an eye for an eye. I just don't see a very productive society with out Law enforcement. I am sorry for all the wrongs done to you by the police. There are bad and lazy police just like bankers, car salesmen,doctors & etc. But in rural alaska (or rural anywhere) if me and you are the only two people for 200 miles and I want your guns,money,house,wife or whatever. I decided to take it by taking your life b/c I ambush you. In your society I get away with it? Like in a caveman mentality the stronger man wins? I will stick with the broken system we have or a totally chaotic one. I have a question for you, starting tomorrow if there was no more law enforcement, what do you do with all the gang banger, druggies,prisoners (b/c no LEOs equals no prisons)& etc. Do I do some preventative maintainance and start shooting them bad guys? What if some other law abiding citizen sees me do this and thinks I am in the wrong (b/c no laws to say who is right or wrong) and shoots me, and some shoots them and so on? I am totally in favor of CC and defending yourself with deadly force. But man a world with no laws or law enforcement sure scares me.

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    In your society I get away with it?
    Only if supposed and self proclaimed good men sit by and do nothing, then they will have the society they deserve.

    Not me. If I were so fortunate to live in such a society and I heard about it, I would get down to the judge with the evidence or get that process server to do it since that part would be his job (I'd go with him if he was scared) and then we'd go serve a warrant and arrest him same as now cept I'd have the gun. Hopefully other people wouldn't be too chicken hearted to go with me, but you're saying they would.

    I have more faith in society than that. If we all retained our duty and didn't try to pass all the crap off onto the cops, it wouldn't be so bad. I don't hate cops, I simply have a philosophical aversion to the nature of the profession. It takes our responsibility and duty out of it and passes it off on agents of the government.

    People like me think they ought to be accountable for the crap they flush downstream and not pay somebody to clean up their messes. If I am not willing to do it, how can I ask somebody else to do it?
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    I have a question for you, starting tomorrow if there was no more law enforcement, what do you do with all the gang banger, druggies,prisoners (b/c no LEOs equals no prisons)& etc. Do I do some preventative maintainance and start shooting them bad guys?
    Apparently you think I support anarchy, I most assuredly do not. If anybody goes around shooting anybody, it had better be in self defense or me and other good men who practice what they preach will go to the judge and swear out a warrant and have you up on charges of murder so fast your head will spin.

    The legalities would be handled exactly as now with the exception that I hold the gun and do the enforcement part. If I get a big head, just like now, I will wind up stepping over the line and go to prison same as now.

    The only possible argument you can make is that we are too lazy, yellow, apathetic to actually do it.

    It would put far more "officers" on the street. It would not encourage anarchy. The process would be the same except it would encourage duty and responsibility. There wouldn't be any "your word against a uniformed super citizens word" situations. No one could hide behind a badge. It would cost far less. It would require more of us. It is currently embodied in law as a citizens arrest anyways.

    In my equation if we have a budget shortfall we don't fire any law enforcement and things stay safe. In your equation you get what the state forces you to pay for.

    What police officer wouldn't like to get rid of the burdens we shove on him because we are unwilling to do it ourselves? Those who wouldn't probably shouldn't be cops.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Default Law enforcement

    I hear you say law enforcement and I think of it in the big picture: police officers, judges,prosecutors,prison guards,probation officer & etc. I now see that you mean just police officer,trooper,game wardens,FBI &etc. I bet there is a great (sad) story behind your distaste for law enforcement officers (LEOs). I think your giving the average person way to much credit to think there going to enforce the laws of society. If you figure most people don't CC and are not confrontational why would they get involved in an armed confrontation. I think your idea was tried along time ago and it did not work thus we have what we have today (good or bad). I can just think of so many situations where LEOs are needed that even armed citizen would not act on. LA Bank shooting: Are you going to go down there and confront those two clowns. I would if I was working as LEO but not as a private citizen. I know lots of people that CC and I think it is great. But the LEOs have specialized equipment to deal with barricaded people and hostage situation and bombs and chemical weapons. It just is not practical for me to rely on Joe Citizen and his wife to carry the a bullet proof vest,M4.flash bang,fiber optic scope,battering ram & etc. to go rescue my kid at the next school shooting. Your going to get your gun and go get a judge to give you a warrant to go to the school and arrest those idiots? I am sorry but that is to late. We have to pay some one that is willing to risk there life to take action immediately and not wait around for a posse to form. I understand the frustration of LEOs not always being available. I have been a victim of crime. I wish there were more LEOs. I don't think the situation is perfect but I don't see your option as a practical solution. It requires to much faith in your fellow man and if you think you can rely on that just turn on the news and watch all the gloom and doom in the world.

  11. #11

    Default Really

    Quote Originally Posted by cool_husker View Post
    I hear you say law enforcement and I think of it in the big picture: police officers, judges,prosecutors,prison guards,probation officer & etc. I now see that you mean just police officer,trooper,game wardens,FBI &etc. I bet there is a great (sad) story behind your distaste for law enforcement officers (LEOs). I think your giving the average person way to much credit to think there going to enforce the laws of society. If you figure most people don't CC and are not confrontational why would they get involved in an armed confrontation. I think your idea was tried along time ago and it did not work thus we have what we have today (good or bad). I can just think of so many situations where LEOs are needed that even armed citizen would not act on. LA Bank shooting: Are you going to go down there and confront those two clowns. I would if I was working as LEO but not as a private citizen. I know lots of people that CC and I think it is great. But the LEOs have specialized equipment to deal with barricaded people and hostage situation and bombs and chemical weapons. It just is not practical for me to rely on Joe Citizen and his wife to carry the a bullet proof vest,M4.flash bang,fiber optic scope,battering ram & etc. to go rescue my kid at the next school shooting. Your going to get your gun and go get a judge to give you a warrant to go to the school and arrest those idiots? I am sorry but that is to late. We have to pay some one that is willing to risk there life to take action immediately and not wait around for a posse to form. I understand the frustration of LEOs not always being available. I have been a victim of crime. I wish there were more LEOs. I don't think the situation is perfect but I don't see your option as a practical solution. It requires to much faith in your fellow man and if you think you can rely on that just turn on the news and watch all the gloom and doom in the world.
    If your in LA and you don't CC you are in the minority and will be a victim. And I can't speak for everyone or Cali. But when the Texas Tower sniper was shooting at college students. Armed citizens responded and kept the shooter shooter occupied while a pair of police officers who weren't TOO scared entered climbed to stairs and ended the shooting.
    This was before swat teams and body armor and unarmed peasants were required.
    Until we as citizens make bad guys realize they didn't get the only gun that came in that case, will our streets be safe.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

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    Quote Originally Posted by cool_husker View Post
    I agree with everything up til the point you said police don't stop or prevent crime. I would hate to see this country with out cops for one day. It is a tough job. People hate you when your around and enforcing laws but scream when your not.
    The fact that the police are around acts as a deterrent to crime. That means they do prevent crime to some degree, but not effectively since they cannot be everywhere all the time (it's impossible.) I agree that they are never there to STOP a crime ...who CAN be other than the victim? And since most crimes are hardly even recorded, let alone solved, you can't very well say that police prevent crime by making someone afraid to commit the thing in the first place. Most bad seeds get away with what they do. You have to take your own protective measures (out of sight / out of mind, locks, avoidance of bad places etc) and be willing and able to protect yourself (since nobody else can get there fast enough.) Life has always been this way on this planet, but thanks to the police and new technology, it's better than ever ...but will never be perfect.

    Brian

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    I hear you say law enforcement and I think of it in the big picture: police officers, judges,prosecutors,prison guards,probation officer & etc. I now see that you mean just police officer,trooper,game wardens,FBI &etc. I bet there is a great (sad) story behind your distaste for law enforcement officers (LEOs).
    Actually a few, but more than anything it is the understanding that all rights are inherent in the people. We don't have any super-citizens (or rather shouldn't).
    I think your giving the average person way to much credit to think there going to enforce the laws of society. If you figure most people don't CC and are not confrontational why would they get involved in an armed confrontation.
    Because they would have to. No room for apathy if you can't pass the buck.
    I think your idea was tried along time ago and it did not work thus we have what we have today (good or bad).
    I actually think it is the other way around, we have what we have now because we made those changes Ie. the apathy, packed prisons, federalization of law enforcement is a result of passing the buck and abandoning our duties to one another.
    I can just think of so many situations where LEOs are needed that even armed citizen would not act on. LA Bank shooting: Are you going to go down there and confront those two clowns.
    Actually, yeah. A good sniper would have ended things really quickly from beyond their effective range. Either way, I'd be there, I honestly would.
    I would if I was working as LEO but not as a private citizen. I know lots of people that CC and I think it is great. But the LEOs have specialized equipment to deal with barricaded people and hostage situation and bombs and chemical weapons. It just is not practical for me to rely on Joe Citizen and his wife to carry the a bullet proof vest,M4.flash bang,fiber optic scope,battering ram & etc. to go rescue my kid at the next school shooting.
    You'd be surprised what's in peoples cabinets. Either way I'd go in quick. In some situations I might have to back out and re-arm, but isn't that what the cops did in the Hollywood bank shootout? If I recall correctly they went not to their armory, but a gun store.
    Your going to get your gun and go get a judge to give you a warrant to go to the school and arrest those idiots? I am sorry but that is to late. We have to pay some one that is willing to risk there life to take action immediately and not wait around for a posse to form.
    In an immediate DLP situation self defense and the defense of others in immediate harm takes precedent and I could by the same right and authority act as your LEO's in the scenario (and would).
    I understand the frustration of LEOs not always being available. I have been a victim of crime. I wish there were more LEOs. I don't think the situation is perfect but I don't see your option as a practical solution. It requires to much faith in your fellow man and if you think you can rely on that just turn on the news and watch all the gloom and doom in the world.
    We cannot afford more LEO's or larger prisons, we cannot afford less responsibility, but we can afford more. Of course increased use of the death penalty would help out a ton too.

    To bridge the gap between us though I submit that the rights of "citizens arrest" be reaffirmed and used (with equal powers, rights, and authority as law enforcement) and keep professional law enforcement so long as they are needed. If I am right we would start to retire them pretty quick, and if I'm wrong, we wouldn't be out anything and they could stay on and continue to clean up our messes.

    My proposal is simply to eliminate the nanny state through a return to widespread personal responsibility and opportunity.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Default RainGull

    Boy your going to be a busy guy. I agree we should bring back the death penalty nation wide and enforce it. Who will do all the investigations bomb,arson,homicide,&etc. with no LEOs. I was a Deputy Sheriff for most of my 15yrs in LE and it seemed people respected us more b/c we worked for an elected official. You now know why some of the things you say are hard for me to swallow. Do you keep a kit in your truck to disarm bombs? I did drug interdiction on I29 for 5yrs and arrested averaged a 100 drug arrests a year. I always figured I was doing the right thing, was I?

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    Who will do all the investigations bomb,arson,homicide,&etc.
    I see no reason not to retain investigators for offenses that necessitate extensive investigation.

    I have lived in many a town with volunteer fire and ambulance services. Which is more difficult to come by, training to neutralize an explosive or to repair trauma on a human body? Training is easy to acquire as is equipment if deemed necessary. How many such incidents did you disarm? Do you think it requires more than 1 person in 1000 to have that ability? If it was a necessity, I'd sure chip in to help set my neighbor up for such a purpose or qualify and kit myself.

    I did drug interdiction on I29 for 5yrs and arrested averaged a 100 drug arrests a year. I always figured I was doing the right thing, was I?
    In absolute general terms of course. The rule of law is essential to any civilization.

    I lived in West Philly for four months in '96 (church volunteer) and everybody knew who the dealers were, where the crack houses were etc... It was common knowledge, but nobody did anything. Force corruption? One has to wonder. Philly is a very interesting place like that though the MOVE 9 and all that. I bet nobody else on this forum has ever stood on the corner of Parkside and Girard at 11:00pm, there aren't many neighborhoods rougher than that in the US if any. I would have gladly carried and enforced were it not against the churches policy. Going on faith alone isn't for the meek of heart!
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Default RainGull

    I am sure their are alot of place as you discribe in the US. I can think of one in rural nebraska on the omaha indian reservation. It is a place that where if you were not from their you stood a good chance of not making it out. Calling in the bomb squad I did that once. I would not even think about messing with it. But it sure was fun watching them blow up a bomb. So basically what you are describing is a place where a few people step up and enforce the law and a few are specialized in investigating crime. Sounds like the police we have now. If you think ever one is going to help it is unrealistic. I knew alot of people that sold drugs but you have to have evidence in this country to convict those people, sorry. So your willing to give up some of your rights to arrest those drug dealers?

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    Sure the "bomb squad" would be few in number (since the need is minuscule), but not the law enforcement. It is easy to document drug use/sales with video and audio within the wiretapping laws, it is easier the more eyes and ears out there. If all the people in the neighborhood took a stand because they didn't want it there it would be gone very quickly. Even if only 10% stepped up to the plate that would vastly outnumber current law enforcement numbers.

    So your willing to give up some of your rights to arrest those drug dealers?
    Rights are inalienable, you cannot give them up, you can honor them or violate them like virtue, but you cannot give them, transfer them etc...
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Default Exactly

    Just think of all your fellow mankind that knew about all the drug dealing and did nothing. Did you do anything? Does not sound like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RainGull View Post
    I'd even go one further and say that police take the duty and responsibility that we have to each other away (intentionally or not). Every concealed carry class I have ever sat through has encouraged permit holders not to get involved in situations that do not directly involve you and yours. Let alone lay citizens without a permit. The attitude of our society regarding law enforcement encourages just the kind of apathy we see, to the point that crowds will watch a cold blooded murder in open daylight in a park and do nothing. Law enforcement usually shows up after the fact.

    Instead of doing something useful most people "doing something" is dialing 911 on their cell phone while they stand around aghast. Society has been neutered by the protectionism of the nanny state.

    If all citizens saw their responsibility and duty to each other, first off they would all go armed (an armed society is a polite society) and secondly they would all act to enforce the law. Call that wild west if you will, but so be it, I would much prefer that wild west to the apathy and dependence we see now.
    Amen on everything said
    Formerly known as one who clings to guns and religion

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    Just think of all your fellow mankind that knew about all the drug dealing and did nothing. Did you do anything? Does not sound like it.
    Your defense rests entirely upon your lack of faith in your fellow man.

    Do you think an apathetic people that abandons it's duties and responsibilities can remain free? I don't think so, tyranny will always step in. If the people fail, then they fail and deserve their fate, but I don't think that would happen if we didn't push the nanny state on everyone.

    The only reason Philly is that way is that since "white flight" occurred, the nanny has been codling that individual intercity population. You should see the ruckus when Social Security, unemployment and welfare checks all come on the same day! The whole town whoops it up! I'm not kidding, nor coloring the reality. That kind of dependence leads not to independence but to further dependence.

    What I am talking about is independence, responsibility, duty, honor, etc... all of which have been taken out of the equation, all of which could be returned.

    Government has taken those things out by setting itself up as the nanny. Now you don't have to worry about school for your children it's taken care of for you (except that it isn't), you don't have to worry about retirement it's taken care of for you (except it isn't), you don't have to worry about health care it's taken care of for you (except it isn't) you don't have to worry about insurance, unemployment, bad crops if your a farmer, natural disasters (don't bother prepping FEMA will bail you out), Don't worry about teaching your children about sex, normalcy and morality, we'll take care of it for you, don't worry about being charitable, we picked up the tab (and here's your bill), you don't have to be the good Samaritan we're much more qualified, heck consolidated media will even tell you what to think, buy, like, who to vote for,.......

    Yes society is a bunch of brain off mindless zombies, but all that can and should change. That is the only way to fix the problems not new and better ways of managing the population.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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