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Thread: National Park Boundries

  1. #1
    Member AKBassking's Avatar
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    Question National Park Boundries

    In Alaska we have 16 national parks and hardly any personnel to manage them, say for one, Denali. We have more parks than any other state, yet we receive the least funding.

    Because of recent events it would appear that the park service (federal employees) does not have a clear understanding of the legal boundaries of their respective park. Park service employees should know, as part of their job, the GPS readings of all Park boundaries and be able to relay that to hunter and/or general users.

    Do you agree or disagree?

    Can we start a campaign to get the national park service to survey and properly mark Alaska national Parks if they ban hunting within those parks or have special federal regulations.

    My personal opinion is to take the feds to court and force them to allow Alaska to manage all wildlife as it is "OUR" resource not theirs. I would also call on Governor Palin's administration to take the Feds to task and make them live up to the promises that were given back in 1959. Basically I call for eliminating federal subsistence regulations and control over State assets.

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  2. #2

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    It's not their place to put markers up so we know the boundaries, it's up to us know where they are. I've hunted that same area many times and I know where I can and cannot hunt.

  3. #3
    Member AKBassking's Avatar
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    Default Yeah But

    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    It's not their place to put markers up so we know the boundaries, it's up to us know where they are. I've hunted that same area many times and I know where I can and cannot hunt.
    I agree with you, however do you think park Service employees should be able to tell you where the boundaries are?

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    The info is available here.

    http://www.nps.gov/gis/data_info/park_gisdata/ak.htm

    Download shapefile, load onto your GPSr.

    Not all the Park Service employees would know the park boundary, but there is always a GIS geek lurking about somewhere.

    ""My personal opinion is to take the feds to court and force them to allow Alaska to manage all wildlife as it is "OUR" resource not theirs. I would also call on Governor Palin's administration to take the Feds to task and make them live up to the promises that were given back in 1959. Basically I call for eliminating federal subsistence regulations and control over State assets""

    They think it's there own private playground. They would just as soon keep everyone out.

  5. #5

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    I don't know really, maybe if they know the co-ordinates or have a map but I wouldn't expect every NPS employee to know where the boundary is actually located.

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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AKBassking View Post
    We have more parks than any other state, yet we receive the least funding.
    Are you sure we receive less NPS funding than ANY other state? I would be interested in learning more about where you came up with this funding factoid.

    Personally I'm going to take responsibility for where I am hunting and not worry about whether or not a government employee can explain park boundaries to me. If I know I'm legal then I don't have anything to worry about. I've always found park boundaries in Alaska to be adequately marked for my purposes.

  7. #7

    Default Many Alaskans already feel the same way

    This is a popular political idea that has already seen the light of day in Alaska. If you recall, Wally Hickelís administration was under the same impression along with the old party, Alaska Independence Party, also believed the federal government has too much control of Alaskaís Land and Resources, which should be managed be the state of Alaska, not the feds. Check out some of the former governorís writings and if this is your opinion, your enjoy reading it.

  8. #8
    Member AKBassking's Avatar
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    Default Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by irishlord View Post
    This is a popular political idea that has already seen the light of day in Alaska. If you recall, Wally Hickelís administration was under the same impression along with the old party, Alaska Independence Party, also believed the federal government has too much control of Alaskaís Land and Resources, which should be managed be the state of Alaska, not the feds. Check out some of the former governorís writings and if this is your opinion, your enjoy reading it.
    I will. I am still angry with Knowleges dropping the law suit.

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  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AKBassking View Post
    In Alaska we have 16 national parks and hardly any personnel to manage them, say for one, Denali. We have more parks than any other state, yet we receive the least funding.

    Because of recent events it would appear that the park service (federal employees) does not have a clear understanding of the legal boundaries of their respective park. Park service employees should know, as part of their job, the GPS readings of all Park boundaries and be able to relay that to hunter and/or general users.

    Do you agree or disagree?

    Can we start a campaign to get the national park service to survey and properly mark Alaska national Parks if they ban hunting within those parks or have special federal regulations.

    My personal opinion is to take the feds to court and force them to allow Alaska to manage all wildlife as it is "OUR" resource not theirs. I would also call on Governor Palin's administration to take the Feds to task and make them live up to the promises that were given back in 1959. Basically I call for eliminating federal subsistence regulations and control over State assets.
    What "recent events" are you referring to AkBassKing?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBassking View Post
    Park service employees should know, as part of their job, the GPS readings of all Park boundaries and be able to relay that to hunter and/or general users.
    Should they memorize them and be able to recite them by rote on demand? Will they be required to be able to instantly recall Lat/long, township range and UTM, or can they just pick one? Should each employee have to remember data for every park in Alaska, or do they only have to memorize the thousands of waypoints for their park only?

    Or should they simply know that if they are asked such a question they should refer the questioner to the right people who possess that knowledge and the actual data as currently happens? Of course this assumes that a hunter or trapper actually asks the question before deciding to spend the weekend set up mere feet from a no-hunting boundary. Not a very safe assumption.

  11. #11
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    Default

    Survey of, and marking the boundaries of, National Park lands is not likely to happen any time in the near future. I don't think the National Park Service employs registered surveyors and the BLM's cadastral budget is maxed out. The Native Corps, Native Allotment owners, and State lands still have a huge amount of land left to be surveyed and the BLM is struggling to meet those requirements.

    Federal Budgets are taxed hard because of the war and the incredible amount of firefighting done in the past few years.

    Park Service land is fully described and isn't too hard to understand. While I agree that all NPS employees should know where the Park boundaries are, not all are educated in the nuances of cadastral legal descriptions and misinterpretations are bound to happen from time to time.

    What probably should be done is for the NPS employees to have a better understanding of their area, whether they are working in Gates of the Arctic or Wrangells or wherever. A little education, common sense and a compassionate community relationship probably could avoid most of the disputes as long as the public is willing to be considerate as well.

    GPS coordinates, GIS maps are good tools, but do not substitute legal descriptions or monumentation (where monuments exist).

    I don't know what happened in the case referred to earlier, but there isn't any reason a little common sense, consideration and a good understanding of the legal descriptions couldn't have resolved the matter point blank.

    It does aggravate me to no end that the hard parks lock residents out from hunting...

  12. #12

    Default nps

    Giving them any money is a waste of time. I was a contract heli pilot for three years and worked Wrangalls, Gates and Yukon/Charlie. If the average citizen knew what the parkies really do and think they would put most of them in prison. I was disgusted at the wasted money someone worked to produce and disgusted with the attitude of 99.9% of the rangers. There have been good people in the system but they leave for other branches of the government in disgust pretty soon. Most of the nps people I flew around outside of fire people with a few exceptions were too stupid to figure out where they were much less boundries. HIghly educated, but not one wiff of commmon sense or any idea of the reality of working and living in AK without a hugh federal life support system. As you can tell I think the NPS is lower than low and that from what I witnessed everyday myself. I'll never get over the experience.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by bodak View Post
    HIghly educated, but not one wiff of commmon sense or any idea of the reality of working and living in AK without a hugh federal life support system.
    The one that made your living for you for three years?
    As you can tell I think the NPS is lower than low and that from what I witnessed everyday myself. I'll never get over the experience.
    So you are going to give the money back when?

    Another example of giving the middle finger with one hand while holding the other out for money. Sniff.

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    Default

    If they don't want you hunting in the park why do you think they would be Ok with you hunting "near" the park?

    Smarten up. Hunt someplace else.

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    want to hunt in a national park, move close to there and qualify for subsistence. Its not that hard.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

  16. #16
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskaflyer331 View Post
    The one that made your living for you for three years?So you are going to give the money back when?

    Another example of giving the middle finger with one hand while holding the other out for money. Sniff.
    What you have said really makes no sense. The pilot may have done his job very well, and may also have done it effeciently. I have worked for the Feds as a biological technician, and money that was in a grant or budget that wasn't spent in that years budget was lost. So our boss went and dropped 30 or 40 grand on an electron microscope, and laid us off from our seasonal positions early, just because he had the money to do it.
    On another note, when I was living down in Seward I was trying to find the park boundary towards Exit Glacier so that I would be sure not to cross it when I was chasing bears. The office in town sent me to the office at the glacier. The office at the glacier told me to go to the office in town. Finally I ran into one of the enforcement officers -- Gun on her side and all. The real deal as far as rangers go. I asked her where the park boundary was. The reply was on the lines of "Its up the road a ways" I asked for the coordinates of the boundary line so I could be sure not to cross it, and she could not provide them. This was not an interpreter or a technician, this was the enforcement ranger. I asked her how she would write me a ticket if I took a bear in the park if she did not know where the boundary was. Not much of a response. I never did figure it out.
    As unfortunate as it is, fighting the hunting in the parks battle is not likely to be won any time soon, but that doesn't make it any less disgusting.

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    Default bold post from akbassking

    it seems there's been a growing sentiment against nps and more so the "caretakers of them" over a couple decades now. lack of funding and thankless work vs protection of their pets inside seem to be 2 extremes with some real examples on both sides. as far as boundaries go, they are what they are. inside is off limits(except for subsistance), some of the best hunting along borders throughout the usa is just on the other side.
    it is a shame so much wildlife has been tied up since the carter administration. allowing subsistance inside, and overconcentrating displaced hunters from fair management of a natural resource is an eyesore of a mistake on our books. so many of our parklands are not denali. no tourists, no access, just a sad resource opportunity wasted that that could truly be beneficial to those willing to be a part of a more sound conservation plan.
    i appreciate the post and the ideas it provokes to make things better some day.

  18. #18
    Member Stogey's Avatar
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    Exclamation Law Enforcement -vs- Court

    All right... maybe I'm being a bit naive.

    Cop writes me a citation for breaking the law.
    I feel that the law is misinterpreted by the law enforcement dude.
    So, I choose to go to court.
    Now... the court determines - was I at fault. If I was within the bounds of the law as it was written, and if I performed as a reasonable person would in the conditions I was in.

    The park rangers, troopers, etc are not the all knowing of all legal things. Generally speaking they have a better understanding of the rules, regulations, and laws applicable to their respective 'beat'. But that is all. If they witness something, or have evidence to something that does not seem to fit within the parameters of their interpretation of the law, they investigate, they write citations, or the apprehend (when situations warrants).

    So... should a NPS ranger know the boundaries of the park they patrol?
    Generally, yes. Specifically? No. Not sure they should stand on an imaginary line and say - you are NOT in the park, but I am.

    It would be nice -- after all, last I checked, Y2K is over and we are in the 21st century - let's get all the techy-tools the rangers need to bust poachers!

  19. #19

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    How do you download that shape file from the parks service. I didn't find anything really obvious. Looking for the boundaries in a gps useable format.

  20. #20
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Default

    What bodak did for a living is irrelavent.............his observations are accurate I think.

    Burden of proof lies with the govt. How do you PROVE where the boudary is? How do you prove where the animal was standing when the shot or arrow was let go? A mile, a half mile, over the line is one thing. A few yards would seem difficult to prove.
    When it comes down to legalities..........just how accurate is a GPS unit?
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

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