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Thread: Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun SS to 450?

  1. #1

    Question Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun SS to 450?

    Can a marlin 45-70 Guide Gun SS be changed over to 450 Marlin fairly easily?

    Or does this require a new barrel, etc, etc

  2. #2

    Default Why switch to 450 Marlin?

    I am curious as to why you would want to change to 450 Marlin when the 45-70 in the current batch of heavier commercial loads as from Cor-Bon and buffalo Bore easily equal the ballistics of the 450 Marlin. If you reload, you can do the same thing yourself.

  3. #3
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    Default

    I doubt it would be an easy conversion seeing the 450 has a belt. Be way easier to sell what you have and purchase a new 450.

  4. #4

    Default Why???

    Why ... well, I prefer the Stainless GG and since this is not a factory option (450M in SS GG), I was curious as to the logistics of converting a 45-70 over. I didn't know if it could be re-reamed or if it would be a much more involved process.

    Why 450M over 45-70? Just a personal preference. I am considering a 450M in a bolt rifle (as alluded to in another thread) and want to keep the number of different chamberings I have to a minimum.

    Thanks for the feedback so far ...

  5. #5

    Question ?

    Would it be simpler to get an 1895M XLR and have the barrel cut down?

    I do like the black/grey laminate of the XLR series better than the laminate on the guide guns.

  6. #6
    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Default Wild West Guns

    Check with Wild West Guns in Anchorage. They do make the 50 Alaskan conversion to the guide gun. Sounds like alot of trouble to me though. But a man wants what he wants. I get it. I would suggest you check out www.stevesgunz.com also. I have a 45-70 SS Guide gun and sent it to him for an action job. He only charged like $110 and the gun is smooth as butter. Unbelievable compared to factory. Literally take 30% the effort to work the lever and loading plate. He also installed a one piece firing pin. X S sight system makes a super nice ghost ring sight for the guide gun. Kirkpatrick leather makes a great leather butt cover that holds 6 extra rounds. Two products I got for mine and are extremely happy with.

  7. #7

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by danattherock
    Check with Wild West Guns in Anchorage. They do make the 50 Alaskan conversion to the guide gun. Sounds like alot of trouble to me though. But a man wants what he wants. I get it. I would suggest you check out www.stevesgunz.com also. I have a 45-70 SS Guide gun and sent it to him for an action job. He only charged like $110 and the gun is smooth as butter. Unbelievable compared to factory. Literally take 30% the effort to work the lever and loading plate. He also installed a one piece firing pin. X S sight system makes a super nice ghost ring sight for the guide gun. Kirkpatrick leather makes a great leather butt cover that holds 6 extra rounds. Two products I got for mine and are extremely happy with.
    I like the 45-70SS Guide gun, but like the ability to have 9 rounds like the 45-70 Cowboy model. Is it possible to increase the capacity at all on the 1895SS?

    What is a good price on one of these? Also, what kind of accuracy are you getting over 100 yards?

    Thanks in advance for putting up with my questions!

  8. #8
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    Default

    It is possible to have the magazine tube changed out but it can lead to other problems as well. If you shoot the really hot rounds the magazine tube can come loose during the recoil because it is carrying more weight the entire length. When the rifle recoils up and back the tube wants to stay down. Can work but requires a very good smith.

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    Default Marlin Stuff.....

    Well,

    I can pretty well assure you that to convert from a 45-70 to a 450 would require a new barrel and extensive internal part replacement.

    Ditto for Dan's camment about Steves gunz. I've seen a couple of them and he does slick things up.

    About the longer magazine on a Guide Gun. With more rounds in the tube, recoil will have more mass to work on and a greater stress will be put on each round in the magazine. Meaning it will be harder to keep the bullets from being pushed into the case under recoil. When fired the gun recoils away from the loaded rounds in the magazine. This has the effect of all rounds moving forward. The front round will have all the others pushing on it. With the cowboy rifle, those are usually shot with standard velocity 45-70 loads and recoil is very mild. The Guide gun is typically (and expectedly by Marlin) fired with heavy +P loads and recoil is much greater. With a full length tube, much greater forces will be pushing on the front round and this could present a problem. It may not be. If you hand load and use a very strong crimp, maybe it will be fine. I used to have a long tube, 22" barreled M1895 Marlin and I was unable to get to the highest load with a full tube. I just didn't load it full when shooting the heaviest loads.

    HMT, What's wrong with having different caliber of rifles? Sounds like more fun. Good shootin'.

    Murphy
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy
    Well,

    I can pretty well assure you that to convert from a 45-70 to a 450 would require a new barrel and extensive internal part replacement.

    Ditto for Dan's camment about Steves gunz. I've seen a couple of them and he does slick things up.

    About the longer magazine on a Guide Gun. With more rounds in the tube, recoil will have more mass to work on and a greater stress will be put on each round in the magazine. Meaning it will be harder to keep the bullets from being pushed into the case under recoil. When fired the gun recoils away from the loaded rounds in the magazine. This has the effect of all rounds moving forward. The front round will have all the others pushing on it. With the cowboy rifle, those are usually shot with standard velocity 45-70 loads and recoil is very mild. The Guide gun is typically (and expectedly by Marlin) fired with heavy +P loads and recoil is much greater. With a full length tube, much greater forces will be pushing on the front round and this could present a problem. It may not be. If you hand load and use a very strong crimp, maybe it will be fine. I used to have a long tube, 22" barreled M1895 Marlin and I was unable to get to the highest load with a full tube. I just didn't load it full when shooting the heaviest loads.

    HMT, What's wrong with having different caliber of rifles? Sounds like more fun. Good shootin'.

    Murphy
    I was thinking 4 rounds is not much if a bear is charging you.... I know it only takes one, but until you actually face the beast charging I don't think anything you can do will ever really prepare you for that moment... I guess you would have 5 correct? One in the chamber, 4 in the tube? Probably wouldn't be able to get that many off in all actuality...

    What do these run in SS? I found them for $550 + shipping on the net... Is this a decent price? Will have to check the shops tomorrow and see what if they have any used ones...

    Matt

  11. #11

    Talking # of chamberings ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy
    Well,

    I can pretty well assure you that to convert from a 45-70 to a 450 would require a new barrel and extensive internal part replacement.


    HMT, What's wrong with having different caliber of rifles? Sounds like more fun.
    Thanks Murphy. I will wait until the 07 models are out and see if a 450M SS is released. If not, I will go with the 45-70.

    I like to keep things simple in my life these days, therfore fewer chamberings ...

  12. #12
    Member 8x57 Mauser's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy
    ...
    With more rounds in the tube, recoil will have more mass to work on and a greater stress will be put on each round in the magazine. Meaning it will be harder to keep the bullets from being pushed into the case under recoil. When fired the gun recoils away from the loaded rounds in the magazine. This has the effect of all rounds moving forward. The front round will have all the others pushing on it.
    ...
    Help me with your physics and my ignorance about the lever-action:

    Force = Mass * Acceleration.

    A +p round will generate a certain amount of force regardless of how heavy the rifle is. A more massive (heavier) rifle will accelerate the shooter's shoulder less, and thus have less perceived recoil (with the same round and length of barrel.) No news there.

    As goes the shoulder, so go the rounds in the magazine. So the longer the magazine tube, and the more rounds in it, the more massive the whole rifle package, and therefore the smaller the acceleration.

    With less acceleration, there's less force on each individual round, not more. So, while a +p round will jam bullets into cartridges more than a lower-power load (by increasing force at the beginning of this whole discussion), the increased number of rounds in the magazine would mitigate, not exacerbate the problem, right?

    Or am I making an error to assume the rounds in the magazine move with the rifle? Is the spring in a lever-action's magazine so loose that there's all sorts of room for sloshing around in there?

    Just looking for a little enlightenment...

  13. #13
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    Default Isaac who?

    8x57,

    Actually, your physics are pretty good. I think just the overall picture is a little blurry.

    More rounds in the magazine is more weight, therefore more mass and more inertia. (greater mass has greater at rest inertia, and more resistance to acceleration) The loaded rounds are held to the rear of the magazine by a spring. At firing the rifle begins to move rearward leaving the at rest cartridges lying quietly in the tube. They resist acceleration and the magazine spring compresses all the way and then the plug of the magazine (the follower) smacks the front cartridge in the nose. If they were lighter weight or just fewer of them the spring pressure would start them moving with the rifle before we run out of spring. Also, we can use a stronger spring.

    The result of all this smacking in the nose (the front cartridge gets it a lot) results in the bullet being pushed into the case. Some of the other rounds will also be pushed some depending on how heavy the load, how good is the crimp, how heavy the rifle (slower recoil velocity), and how heavy the shooter. (strong shoulder) These shortened rounds will not feed in a lever action Marlin.

    The rounds do move with the rifle but not as does the barrel and magazine tube. They are not an intergral part of the rifle, they are just there for the ride.

    Mass=weight /accelleration of gravity.
    Mass at rest has inertia. More mass=more inertia.
    Inertial mass= resistance to accelleration
    All objects on this planet have mass and inertia.

    Momentum (p)=mass*velocity
    Force=dp/dt (Force= change in momentum per unit of time)

    Force is: I moved this much mass in this much time.
    Recoil is the result of force.
    Bullets being launched out of a gun barrel in 12.4 ms (.0000124 seconds) is the result of force.

    Ain't physics fun? Good shootin?

    Murphy
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  14. #14
    New member George's Avatar
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    Default rounds in mag

    Murphy, That's exactly right. Another way to look at rounds in any magazine, in this case a column of rounds in a tube, is to view them as a stationary object(s). The front of the magazine slams into the column of cartridges as the rifle recoils rearward. The mag follower can be thought of as part of that column because it is held in contact with the front cartridge by the mag spring. The greater the stationary mass (column of cartridges) the greater the force that is imparted upon it with any given amount of rearward force and velocity (recoil). The overall stress on the points of attachment of longer tube magazines is in at least two dimensions, up/down and front/rear.

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    Default Zactly!

    George,

    Thanks for helping make my point.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HMT
    Can a marlin 45-70 Guide Gun SS be changed over to 450 Marlin fairly easily?

    Or does this require a new barrel, etc, etc
    I think Marlin makes it in a 450. Check out this link
    http://luvtohunt.com/marlin.htm

    What are the key differences between the 45-70 & the 450?

  17. #17

    Default Unfortunately ...

    unfortunately, the guide stainless is only available in 45-70 at the moment; at least according to Marlin's site.

    Maybe they will release the 450M next year ...

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HMT
    unfortunately, the guide stainless is only available in 45-70 at the moment; at least according to Marlin's site.

    Maybe they will release the 450M next year ...
    How about this one??? http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=4665667

  19. #19

    Default ...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911-MW
    Thanks 1911 ... I misunderstood when you referred me earlier. I had thought about cutting down the barrel and replacing the stock ($$$) on an XLR in 450M.

    I dont really 'need' a SS Guide Gun until next year, so I will wait and see what Marlin comes out with from the factory in 07 before I go down the custom road too far.

    Thanks everyone for the great discussion.

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