View Poll Results: How important are speed, shock vs wound channel

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  • #1 I prefer speed, shock and internal damage

    63 64.95%
  • #2 I prefer a streight through wound channel

    37 38.14%
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Thread: Quick kill

  1. #1
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    Default Quick kill

    Recently I have been impressed by all of the opinions about bullet diameters, energy,and wound channels killing big game not energy. Conventional wisdom tells us the bigger the gun, the better. Now I cant argue with that kind of wisdom but I have a few questions and observations of my own. I'm going to direct my comments to a recent statement I read on this site that said, It's not the energy that kills, it's the wound Channel. Let's take for instance a 50 cal. muzzle loader, I have personally killed a half dozen deer with one. I have had it pick them up and almost throw them only to have them run off some distance before dying. The same can be said for archery equipment. I've killed numerous deer with an arrow. Never have I had one fall dead in its track's on an archery hunt. A large wound Chanel is always beneficial to locating your animal after it runs off. On the other hand I have shot somewhere around 30 - 35 Mule deer and 2 Elk with various 243 diameter cartridges, 6mm, 6-284, 6 short mag wildcat. What I have found is for instance. The 6-284 shooting a 87 gr. Hornady HP at 3570 fps. consistently kills faster than the deer killed by friend's Ive hunted with shooting 30.06 and other caliber's shooting much heavier bullet's than me. There bullet's typically shoot straight through providing a nice quarter or half dollar sized hole making them relatively easy to track. Mine on the other hand normally drop in their track's amazing the friend's that have witnessed the event. I know a lot of you are falling out of your chair right now to think I'm hunting big game with a varmint bullet. Now I'm not saying you should go hunting waterbuffalo with such a cartridge, but with any caliber it is my belief at least for the hand loader, there are bullets out there that can and will outperform the pass through conventional wisdom. Bullets tailor loaded to preform on different animals have the potential to drop animals in their tracks, no need for a heavy blood trail if your animal never ran off in the first place.

  2. #2
    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Default Neither

    Neither - I would go for placement first. I don't care what you shoot, if you can't place the bullet in the correct spot, none of the others are going to matter much.

    Vietnam - June 70 - Feb. 72
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  3. #3

    Default one mans opinion

    as a jack of all trades and a master of none, heres my take...i pick a caliber that is forgiving...what i mean by that is if i make a bad shot to forward into a shoulder bone on a big bear it will at least break it down so i can get a second shot, for bears and moose i use a 338 with 225 barnes tsx, two shots minimun.....for whitetail i try to spill as much blood on the ground as possible, 444 marlin, but i do loose some meat...i know what it feels like to make a bad shot with to little of gun and have to live with the fact that an animal has needlessly suffered because of money-saving small caliber weapons, lack of time, or ignorance......ill always have too much gun, i think its the best way to go for a quick kill...and if you disagree, i dont care......happy hunting
    ...Jackie Bushman is a TOOL

  4. #4
    Member Bear Buster's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daveinthebush View Post
    Neither - I would go for placement first. I don't care what you shoot, if you can't place the bullet in the correct spot, none of the others are going to matter much.
    No vote.....ditto what dave said
    I Prefer a massive heart attack and boiler room shut down!

  5. #5
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    Default 2nd (or 3rd) that

    Have to agree with what Dave and Bear Buster said. Shot placement is paramount. That said, I've never been impressed by exit wounds.

  6. #6
    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    Default air in and blood out

    I have changed my sig line BTW. I believe it is more accurate in its meaning now.

    I prefer a nice hole through the vitals and prefer an exit.

    I prefer monometal bullets because they go deep and in my opinion dont ruin as much meat to bloodshot. The wound channel is typically linear with the likeness of a giant drill bit ran through the critter with the bullet actually cutting its way through.

    I also use large meplat hardcast in handguns and find these to make a similair linear wound channel more with a likeness of tearing its way through.

    Last but certainly not least I love bowhunting. A shot in the right place is a dream but know that a shot in the wrong place is a nightmare. Also know that no amount of ftlbs of energy will bail you out of a bad shot regardless of weapons used.

    I find what I have written in my sig line to be the most reliable factor in what kills my game. It works for me.

    Especially on moose who can take a hit from a magnum superblaster with over 4000 foot pounds of energy and keep on going about his business. And how many bears get right back up after getting hit with same. At least until the blood runs out.
    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

  7. #7
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    Talking Thanks Guy's

    Thanks for all the input, I have enjoyed your thoughts. I can understand all of the reason's for big gun's. Being a hand loading junkie, I have enjoyed a lifetime of checking out bullet performance. I guess I have {what my wife call's} an obsession with it. Now I would never go hunting Grizzly with the bullet described earlier, but it's performance on medium sized game from 100 - 500 yds has been phenomenal. I guess I have an obsession with speed. Thanks for all the input.

  8. #8
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    Default

    Neither for me. I could have answered "fast Kill," but from a well placed shot using a heavy per caliber bullet.

  9. #9

    Default Not quite either selection

    I don't really agree with either choice. You need good shot placement, adequate penetration, and proper bullet performance. A large caliber rifle is not the answer for poor marksmanship. Not enough energy to allow for adequate penetration leaves the potential for wounded animals or animals who do not die quickly. Poor bullet performance may not impart enough damage to vital organs to ensure a quick humane kill. When you put the right formula together, you can reasonably expect quick humane kills. Anyone who is taking shots further than their effective range or using guns/bullets that are not large enough to kill an animal quickly and humanely are not respecting the resource. Those who opt for an enormous, high powered rifle, but can't shoot it because it kicks too hard are not doing themselves or the game animal any favors.

    CubeCove

  10. #10
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    Default

    My thinkin is more in line with RMiller. I shoot the 225 grain Barnes X-bullet in 338 WM. I have about 100 handloaded rounds left, once they're gone, I'll move up to either the TSX or TTSX.

    I worship at the alter of exit wounds. What I want in bullet performance is complete penetration from any angle with a larger than bullet diameter wound channel. The monolithic bullets like the Barnes come the closest to giving me that kind of performance.

    I think there is something to the notion of what some folks call hydrostatic shock and it's impact on killing game but I don't believe it's significant. I don't have any math to back that up, just my own belief based on limited personal observation.

    If we were talking about pistol velocities, then the FBI has done an extensive study I googled a few months back that show the elastic nature of flesh largely mitigates the hydrostatic impact of bullets fired at pistol velocities. I believe the higher rifle velocities do cause more damage but again, I don't believe it is significant.

  11. #11
    Member 8x57 Mauser's Avatar
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    Question Funny math

    I'm gonna try to post a snapshot of this, 'cause it'll change, I know:

    #1 I prefer speed, shock and internal damage 6 54.55%
    #2 I prefer a streight through wound channel 6 54.55%

    Anybody else see anything wrong with 6-6 coming out 55-55?

    Where'd the other 10% come from?

  12. #12
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    Default Shot placement

    Dave hit the nail on the head

    Originally Posted by Daveinthebush
    Neither - I would go for placement first. I don't care what you shoot, if you can't place the bullet in the correct spot, none of the others are going to matter much.

    Lung shot works, because they are big targets, if it's a bear, second shot takes out the shoulders. Shot with a big bore a bou's lung becomes jello, smaller caliber still effective because the animals needs to breathe

    Terry

  13. #13
    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Default New Math

    Quote Originally Posted by 8x57 Mauser View Post
    I'm gonna try to post a snapshot of this, 'cause it'll change, I know:

    #1 I prefer speed, shock and internal damage 6 54.55%
    #2 I prefer a streight through wound channel 6 54.55%

    Anybody else see anything wrong with 6-6 coming out 55-55?

    Where'd the other 10% come from?
    It is the new math they are using these days. You don't want kids to fail so every problem comes out being a little more positive than expected. Helps the kids self esteem.

    Vietnam - June 70 - Feb. 72
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    Cancer Survivor - Dec. 14th 2012

  14. #14
    Member MARV1's Avatar
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    Default

    This argument will go on forever as long as there are different calibers and different people. You shoot what you want if you like it, I'll shoot what I know works for me. Your gun can be bigger than mine, that doesn't make it better. I know what mine can kill with a well placed shot in its tracks! .22 to .30 cal. it gets the job done the way I like it.
    The emphasis is on accuracy, not power!

  15. #15
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    Default

    For me as a bow hunter my #1 thing is shot placement. Nothing else matters if I don't hit the area I'm aiming at.
    Living the Alaskan Dream
    Gary Keller
    Anchorage, AK

  16. #16
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    Default

    i could care less about speed, i like mid range velocity, .416, 30.06, .338, .375, and holes in the vitals, shot placement....and damamge like theres no tomorrow...expanding bullets, exit holes and penetration....
    Www.blackriverhunting.com
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  17. #17
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    Wink

    I agree with Daveinthebush, shot placement is second to none. But now-one has answered my question completely. What is it that makes an animal drop in it's track's. I have witnessed countless deer on hunting video's hit good behind the shoulder with a large caliber rifle, and run off. On the other hand I have personally saw deer killed in there track's with smaller, faster, more explosive bullet's, and often times with no exit wound. Upon cleaning the deer the blood in the chest cavity looks like jello, and it appears shrapnel has cut everything to piece's. I have to agree, you can shoot a deer with a completely wrong bullet, but I also think a small caliber with the proper bullet can and will give you a quicker kill than a larger caliber with the wrong bullet. I believe shot placement and bullet performance are paramount to a quick kill from what I have observed. An extra large caliber, with the proper bullet could be hand loaded to be devastating if we had the courage to put less emphasis on an exit hole. Take it for what it's worth, but then again my opinion is free.

  18. #18

    Default Shot Placement

    In order for any bullet to perform its duty it has to strike a vital organ or severe some major vessels.
    In a perfect world most any centerfire rifle will accomplish this task on a whitetail, blacktail, and mule deer. As the species gets larger the projectile must transfer more energy to it's target to provide proper harvesting of an animal.
    The dispatch of dangerous animals isn't in either of the above classes, which requires the tranfer of massive amounts of energy with high degrees of penetration.
    In smaller deer size animals where smaller rifles can be and are used, the velocity and bullet desintagration aren't a major factor as long as we hit a vital area and destroy the animals flight capability(heart /lungs). ERGO the next problem, this assumes perfect bullet placement. BUT, what if you happen th hit a scapula/rib cage. The bullet has to withstand high velocity impact and hold together in order to reach its targets. That's where lighter high velocity bullets fail/desintagrate.
    Larger deer species need bullets which have a higher sectional density /hold togehter on bigger muscles and bones. If it misses all the bones it should exit on a side-side shot.
    On dangerous game bullets should be able to strike from a multitude of angles not just wait for the perfect shot. These bullets should be designed to break bones and still find vital organs regardless of target angle. The bullets which miss bones or have a non-fragmenting design should exit.
    Velocity is a plus; ACCURACY is an A+.
    So I like accurate mid-range velocity rifles with well constructed bullets which reach their intended targets.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

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  19. #19
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    Default

    The first deer I killed this fall was a head on chest shot with a .308. NO blood trail. He didn't go to far thank heavens. Lungs chest full of "jelly blood". The last deer I killed this fall was with a .223. through the lung and into the spine area but I could not find a bit of the bullet She dropped like a rock, no exit wound chest full of blood. I've seen the .308 put a fist size exit hole in a deer chest and the deer still ran 80 yards. I'll take the thirty calibers and bonded bullets.

  20. #20
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    Default

    Well since most take the shot placement is everything position, I'll take the opposite.

    It seems to me, to be somewhat arrogant when when some one says; "It doesn't matter as long as shot placement is right" or to say; "Shot placement is everything." This is akin to saying; I always make a perfect shot (as you may define) so I can hunt with my teeny weeny pip squeek caliber. Well, your teeny weeny pipqueek caliber may make a quick kill 100 % of the time, but I'm willing to bet none of us can make a perfect shot everytime. I know the general jest of this "shot placement" philosophy is that we must hit the vitals, but there is more to it.

    None of us can see the heart of any animal as it stands in the woods. Nor can we see any other vital organ. Also the ability to ascertain the exact angle of attack (for lack of a better term) that the animal has. Is it exactly broadside, or quartering to or away. Is he head on or almost head on, or headed away with the head and neck turn back to look at us. Sometimes we can see clearly enough to determine where the vitals will lie, sometimes not. For a fish in the barrel broad side shot many calibers will work fine with just about any bullet. These same calibers become marginal performers when under less than ideal field conditions.

    I'm not trying to say here that a bigger bore will make all the difference, but there are times when it can mean anchoring an animal or taking up the trail. When we talk about this most folks site the number of deer they have taken. I don't consider a deer, regardless of species, to be particularly tough to drop but I 've seen many that have been shot poorly with many different calibers. Sometimes it isn't that the shot was bad but that the bullet had to go through too much animal to get to the vitals. The 243 that had worked for a half dozen broadside shots before is suddenly inadequate. Typically with quartering to shots, an inch either way will be a shoulder bone or too far back in the paunch. That is an extremely difficult shot from the field on a small animal. Also, even a walking animal must be led. I would say that if a survey was honestly taken that over 80% of animals killed were shot poorly (less than perfect) and that subsequent shots were taken in hast with equally bad results.

    I also have a lot of greif with head shooters. I've seen many of these and almost always the animal goes down form the initial trauma of being hit in the head (which is usually the face). Lots of animals have jumped up and run off with a broken jaw hanging. There are no vitals in the face and the brain is small and almost never where the shooter thought it was.

    There is a growing fraternity of hunters today that believe the, what is the new term "monometal" bullets, are the answer to everything. There is a belief that the bullet even if only 60 grains or so will take all manner of beast and actually believe that a face shot will exit the tail end. This is unsound thinking. This belief that; with the right bullet, you can shoot through anything is not a valid concept. There may be shots that seem to perform like magic and others, on the species of animal with the same gun, don't react anywhere near the same.

    Good hunter ethics is using a caliber that is capable of cleanly taking the animal hunted under all situations that a hunter may encounter, with well developed marksmanship skills and a self discipline to take only the shots with in our skill level.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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