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Thread: 45 Colt +p or 454 Casull for bear

  1. #1

    Default 45 Colt +p or 454 Casull for bear

    Looking at the Buffalo Bore Loads, 325 grain hard cast. Get 1325 fps in the 45 colt and 1525 fps in the casull. Any real world benefit in the Casull and the extra 200 fps? My home range only allows me to shoot the 45 colt so I figure I may stick with those loads for bear protection. Good idea, or go with the full power Casull's? Recoil be much different?

    Thanks,
    Mike

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    With a Ruger Alaskan I would consider the Casull for the bit of added velocity from the short barrel, but in reality it won't make that much difference.

    The velocity range I hear continually touted by smarter men than I for the heavy hard cast in these calibers is 1100fps-1400fps. I don't think there is any magic in that, just that it has been tried often with success, and I find comfort in that proven track record of success.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeStaten View Post
    Looking at the Buffalo Bore Loads, 325 grain hard cast. Get 1325 fps in the 45 colt and 1525 fps in the casull. Any real world benefit in the Casull and the extra 200 fps? My home range only allows me to shoot the 45 colt so I figure I may stick with those loads for bear protection. Good idea, or go with the full power Casull's? Recoil be much different?

    Thanks,
    Mike
    My guess is that you haven't shot either, may be you should try them out. A couple of things to consider. First do you have a gun chambered for the Casull? If so buy Casull ammo. The second is these 45 Colt loads are loaded to almost the same pressure, about 44,000 psi. This is maximum pressure (or +P) for the 44 mag, it is a "modern guns only" 45 colt +P+ load and a down loaded 454 Casull load. He down loads the 454 to prevent bullets from jumping crimp, a common fault with some guns.

    Another note; the Ruger 45 Colt 5 1/2" Redhawk gun I shot those loads in stuck cases a little and the velocity was almost 1300 fps, they are hot. I don't think that velocity is needed for sure penetration of 300 plus grains hardcast bullets in the 45 Colt. A redhawk is a punishing gun with this load, the single actions are easier on me. I don't think the velocity or the recoil of the 454 is necessary either to have a very effective handgun to hunt with. I think a 5 1/5" 45 Colt or 480 Ruger in a Freedom Arms M83 loading up 350 to 370 grain, (or 400 to 440 grain for the 480) bullets at about 1200 will do everything that can be done with a big bore revolver. Of course we need a longer case to load that bullet to that level. (Enter the 454 Casull ) That is where I load my 454. In other words, more bullet less velocity. If you have a 454 use 454 ammo, better performance and less pressure.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  4. #4

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    Murphy,
    You are correct, I haven't shot the gun yet. Should be getting it in the next month or so. The gun is a Ruger SRH. How would the 454 shooting the same bullet, faster, have less pressure than the 45? Also, are there other factory loads that you would recommend over the buffalo bore? Was considering them because they seem to have a good reputation.

    Thanks,
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeStaten View Post
    Murphy,
    You are correct, I haven't shot the gun yet. Should be getting it in the next month or so. The gun is a Ruger SRH. How would the 454 shooting the same bullet, faster, have less pressure than the 45? Also, are there other factory loads that you would recommend over the buffalo bore? Was considering them because they seem to have a good reputation.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Mike,

    Maybe I didn't say that right. The 454 loads are less pressure than the cartridge was designed for which is 65,000 psi. I would guess his (BBA) loads for the 454 are about 50,000 psi. More than enough. I'm just saying I would much rather shoot 454 at 50,000 psi than 45 Colt at 45,000 psi which is about where those are loaded. He is shooting for an approximate level of performance between the two. The longer 454 case will allow greater velocity at the same pressure with the same bullet, an undeniable aspect of physics, but I can't say for sure what his loads are loaded to but I have pressure tested 45 Colt and 454 Casull with those bullets and have a good idea where thay are. It is actually very good that he down loads the 454 a little so we can keep the bullets in the cylinder. You have a 454 cylinder, use the 454 ammo. Prices are the same, right? I assume you do not handload so off the shelf ammo is all you have.

    This Buffalo Bore is high quality ammo. It is loaded very strong and is for a specific purpose. You won't shoot a lot of it, just be sure your POI is where you want it and go to the field,it will get the job done.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeStaten View Post
    Also, are there other factory loads that you would recommend over the buffalo bore?
    I think Cor-Bon also has a hot .45 LC round, which they have called .45 magnum or .45 LC+p. It's the same deal: .45 LC loaded to a higher pressure. They have a good reputation as well, though I don't know how their round is compared to Buffalo Bore's.
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  7. #7

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    It looks like Double Tap also has a selection of high-pressure .45's, but I don't know about their reputation. I've never heard of anyone who's shot any of their ammo.
    Tsimshian tribe, wolf clan, the house of Walsk.

  8. #8

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    Murphy,
    Thanks for the info. So, if I go with the 454 I can step up to a 360 grain bullet. Would you? Or just stick with the 325 with a bit more speed?

    Thanks again,
    Mike

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfeye View Post
    It looks like Double Tap also has a selection of high-pressure .45's, but I don't know about their reputation. I've never heard of anyone who's shot any of their ammo.

    I've shot a ton of their stuff... I currently have six or seven different Double Tap offerings in 10mm and their 320 HCFN in .44 mag. It is excellent ammo at a very fair price, and the owner (Mike) is a gem.

    Why the questions about the loads? Anything chambered in .454 will take the .45 Colt anyway, so just buy the Casull chambering and shoot whichever feels better for you. If you can hit what you're aiming at there will be no difference in actual effect between the two anyway....
    Hunting, camping & shooting goodies. http://www.laksupply.com

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    Default recoil

    I agree, if you cant hit the target, what good is it to shoot either. The recoil from 45 to 454 is noticeable but definitely not unbearable. If you are that worried about it, zero with your 454 ammo, then practice with the 45 colt ammo (cheaper this way too).

    I have the alaskan with the 2.5 barrel....its sweet!!! I love it, but I have never had a big prob with recoil, and I'm by no means a super strong dude.

    If you are in Anc., and want to try it out I am goin shooting tomorrow(Sat.). PM me.

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    I shoot my 340 grain hardcast at 1350 in my raging bull 454 casull.

    I found that going up in velocity from this quickly adds more recoil and at 1350 it is at my limit for fast accurate follow up shots.

    A 340 at 1200 is a pure pleasure to shoot. But my pistol is very accurate at 1350 and recoil is moderate so that is the load I carry.

    If you dont reload you should think about reloading as the Casull is easy to load for and factory ammo is expensive.
    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ripnlip View Post
    I agree, if you cant hit the target, what good is it to shoot either. The recoil from 45 to 454 is noticeable but definitely not unbearable. If you are that worried about it, zero with your 454 ammo, then practice with the 45 colt ammo (cheaper this way too).

    I have the alaskan with the 2.5 barrel....its sweet!!! I love it, but I have never had a big prob with recoil, and I'm by no means a super strong dude.

    If you are in Anc., and want to try it out I am goin shooting tomorrow(Sat.). PM me.
    Thats true...More of a sissy really...j/k

  13. #13

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    Here's my take on the situation.

    If you're punching a non-expanding 45 cal hole through your target, does it matter if it's traveling 1100 fps or 1400 fps. IMHO, I don't think it matters. I think the only advantage to the faster slug is trajectory is flattened out if your target is a bit further.

    So, you may need to ask yourself how far can you, will you, intend to, shoot your animal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeStaten View Post
    Murphy,
    Thanks for the info. So, if I go with the 454 I can step up to a 360 grain bullet. Would you? Or just stick with the 325 with a bit more speed?

    Thanks again,
    Mike
    Speed for a big bore revlover is an enemy that can get you, especially if we refer to the might 454. We really cannot shoot the 454 at the ballistic level for which it was designed. It is at its best with the bullets from 325 to 375 grains or so. I would always prefer weight and give up velocity. Recoil is less and the bullets will stay in the case, the gun is more controllable and it is more effective with more bullet weight. It is capable of shooting through a cape buffalo at 1400 fps with the 360 grain Cast Perfromance WLNGC or the BearTooth 355 grain WFNGC. I would hunt anything with the 454 so loaded. It is capable of more velocity but I don't load these bullets above 1400. The commercial loaders don't either, they know the problem with bullet jump. Any velocity between 1100 fps and 1400 fps with about 350 grains or so will do all that can be done with a big bore handgun. The CP 360 grain WLNGC at 1300 fps will shoot through 60 inches of birch log.

    I would see no reason for buying expensive factory 45 Colt loads if you have a 454 chamber, except to test, etc. The fact that the 45 Colt can be all any 45 caliber revolver can be is just the way it is. The 45 Colt when loaded with say a 325 grain hard cast at even 1100 fps will make a hole all the way through. All the 454 can do is a little larger wound cavity with more power to push heavier bullets at that penetration velocity. It is a faster killer but either one will be a stopper through the melon.

    The advirtised velocity of some of these loads is from a 7.5" barrel and your mileage may vary especially with the shorter barrel lengths. If you shoot the shortest barrel the heavier bullet would be best.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    ahhhhh,,,........the Casulls! just amazing pistols! I've owned both the Taurus and the SRH, sold the Taurus the next day-junk as far as I was concerned, accurate enough though. Got my SRH a few days later from my gundealer friend. Shot some of my reloads thru it and decided to send it off to MagNaPort. When it came back it was truly a friend! Marvelous hand gun that can hold up under pressure! Literally!

    Think I went up to 460grn. hardcast in it with some stout loads-reloaded the ammo and was **** accurate! Or was it me? In time I noted the hotter the loads the greater likely hood of the brass "flowing" under pressure or sticking considerably in the cylinder. I would keep the loads from max. pressures for ease of ejection.

    If you can handle the recoil you will find these handcannons to be very accurate! Almost have to say you don't really need to carry any other firearm as this will certainly do. The follow up shot takes a second or 2 to get on target but........hopefully the first has found its mark.

    I met the fella yrs. back that done the B&C with a .454 Casull on a Browny-he had the FA scoped, hit the first shot low on the bear and the second broke the spine here in our State. This pistol has great potential if you can get a grip on it-don't pick up the flinch!

    regards,

  16. #16

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    Murphy, where do you get the 44,000 PSI for the 45 Colt +P for the Buffalo Bore 325 grain LFN? According Buffalo Bore they do not exceed 32,000 PSI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfeye View Post
    It looks like Double Tap also has a selection of high-pressure .45's, but I don't know about their reputation. I've never heard of anyone who's shot any of their ammo.
    I have shot and hunted with a number of different caliber loads from Double Tap and it has all been first class. The 360 grain .454 loads are very accurate in my SRH, and the 400 gran WFNs are brutal! I took a 200 lb. hog with the 400 grain load last year, and upon skinning the animal, we just pulled the offside leg off -- it did a lot of damage........ Their 320 grain .44 mag loads are very effective as well......

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwp500 View Post
    Murphy, where do you get the 44,000 PSI for the 45 Colt +P for the Buffalo Bore 325 grain LFN? According Buffalo Bore they do not exceed 32,000 PSI
    Well, I guess I do not know to what pressure BBA loads this 325 grain bullet in the 45 Colt. I have run a lot of Piezo transducers to measure pressure and have spent some time with the crew at Hodgdons some years back when they were loading using the copper crushers on a universal receiver. I've seen a lot of pressure vs velocity curves with the big bore revolvers and have a pretty good feel for the numbers.

    I am not running down BBA ammo but what I'm trying to say is the 45 Colt loads are the equal in pressure to the 44 mags normal operating pressure and that BBA down loads the 454 to make it shootable and to keep the bullets in the case. Most of us who have spent some time with the Casull also load it down a bit.

    I believe BBA list the pressure for there loads as CUP not psi because the loads are actually tested at Hodgdons powder and they still use the copper crusher. The may have their own transducer equipment now, thatis the more accurate way to measure pressure. CUP isn't the same as PSI and doesn't convert easily.

    At about 54,000 PSI CUP and PSI are about equal. Below that number CUP will track below PSI and above the 54,000 Cup will be above.

    As an example 35,000 CUP is equal to about 39,000 psi. Not that any of this makes any difference.

    The BBA ammo for the 45 Colt is good stuff but it is loaded in the neighborhood of 44 mag pressures. I don't think it will destroy a gun but it takes its toll on gun and shooter alike. The Fredom Arms gun is the strongest built revolver going and it will take a hammering and still remain tight and accurate. I'm not so sure about some of the others.

    MIkes post was about the 325 grain load in the 45 Colt at 1325 or 454 at 1525. Of course the best load would be the 325 at 1325 in the 454, but that is a handloading situation. I would shoot the 360 grains at 1300 fps in the 454 and it is capable of 1600 fps with that bullet. I don't believe any animal can tell the difference at handgun ranges with the extra 200 or 300 fps but the gun and the shooter will.


    BTW the SAAMI normal pressure for the 44 Mag and the 45 Colt are 36,000 psi and 14,000 psi respectively. I believe the 454 is SAAMI'd at 65,000 psi.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  19. #19

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    According to BB the 45 Colt loads do not exceed 32,000 PSI. I do not know this for a fact, but that is the claim from BB.

    I agree 100% the 360 grain 454 load at 1400 FPS or 1300 FPS is outstanding

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    The Casull certainly doesn't need to be run as fast as it is usually loaded by the ammo manufacturers. All it does is causes discomfort for the shooter.......

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