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Thread: HB 348 / Predator Control

  1. #1
    Member Riptide's Avatar
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    Default HB 348 / Predator Control

    House Bill 348 - legislation by Wes Keller of Wassilla has found itself dying on the vine in the House Legislature. He won't ask for a floor vote because nobody supports back door legislation that would remove the ability of the citizens of this state to vote on public policy issues involving managing our wildlife resources.

    Rep Kellers own district voted in favor of the initiative process in 2000 as did 72% of the states citizens. But, we know Rep. Keller has little understanding or respect for the principles of democracy.

    Instead of working with all user groups by allowing diversified representaiton on the Board of Game the legislature and the governor (past and present) continue to add board members that seek radical right wing policies that are not supported by Alaskans. The BOG is the biggest threat to Alaska's hunters rights we face. By developing contriversial predator control programs without fair and equal representaion of all Alaskans they ensure a big black eye for us hunters. A diversified BOG could develop predator control programs that would have public support. Democracy only works if the citizens can vote. If the ADF&G did the job with choppers and lots of good science nobody would be freaking out now.

    Sooner or later, the 86% of Alaskan's that don't buy a hunting license are going to demand fair and equal representation on the BOG. Its mandated by law, fair and equal representation. Its a corner stone of democracy, fair and equal representation. Try as you might - you can't justify any bill that attemps to legislatethe public and vested user groups out of the process of managing Alaska's wildlife resources just because you don't agree with them on policy issues. The Biologists can set methods but the public must set PUBLIC policy! And by a vote of the people is where it happens. Denning will die the same fate as aerial predator control by the public.

    HB 348 is yet another example of a small minority trying to abuse the democratic process. SFW and AOC is heavily funded by out of state right wing people that just don't understand Alaska.

    We Alaskan's know our wildlife resources are our greatest resource and we have the knowledge and ability to manage our wildlife resources effectively. We don't fear the wolf or bear as those in the lower 48 do. Healthy wildlife populations need healthy predator populations. The wolves and bears never wiped out the moose, deer or caribou in the past. When the white man first showed up the moose, deer and caribou populations were staggering. The Kenai peninsula was stunning - what happened to those massive Moose found along the Kenai River? Did the wolf and bear destroy the moose and caribou on the peninsula? No, overpopulation of the human hunter did! We need predator control alright - but its the human predator that must be downsized.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    We do manage our resources by hiring SCIENTISTS to do STUDIES and recommend ways to MANAGE OUR GAME!! No I don't want special interest groups running missrepresenting adds on tv and have the people in ANCHORAGE CONTROL THE STATE!! Balot Box biology is a great way to tie the hands of our biologist and FLYS IN THE FACE OF THE STATE CONSTITUTION which requires management for consumptive users within the sustained yield principles. Just reading your post makes it clear that you don't rely on wild game as a required source of sustenance for your livelyhood...

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Oh and we had widespread predator control when those "massive moose" were along the kenai.

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    Default Bunny Hugger

    Right on LuJon! Riptide sounds like a Bunny Hugger lookin' to stir the pot by speading misinformation and stoking peoples fears of closed door legislation for game management. I don't think game management should ever be decided at the ballot box. That's what got us where we are now!

    A good example is MI in the early 90's. The animal rights groups tried to shut down bear baiting and the spring black bear hunt by having a ballot initiative. Hunters groups got together and got a law on the ballot that allowed only the DNR to write hunting regs based on biologist data. The people voted down the animal rights groups bill and passed the sportsmens bill. It effectively shut the anti's out of MI. Also saved bair baiting and the spring hunt.

    I would also like to see same day airborn for everyone on wolves. Case in point: A month ago I flew a friend out to do some ptarmigan hunting. I brought my 22-250 along for fox or coyote. About 3 hrs into the hunt, what do we see? 5 wolves coming down the valley towords us! But because of sameday airborn laws I had to watch them go on their merry way! That's BS

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    Member Riptide's Avatar
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    Default Science Has Been Ignored

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    We do manage our resources by hiring SCIENTISTS to do STUDIES and recommend ways to MANAGE OUR GAME!! ...
    Yes we do, and that radical BOG chooses to ignore them too! In 2004, when the radical BOG first intiated predator control by the few rich dudes with planes, the ADF&G testified that they did not have enough scientific information to justify the predator control programs the BOG were considering. So, what did our science based BOG do, they overode the recomendation of the BOG. They know better than the scientists what was needed. CHeck your facts. Its obvious science is only used when its conveniant and agrees with those radical BOG members.

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    Member Riptide's Avatar
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    Default Balott Box Policy not Biology

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigermusky View Post
    Right on LuJon! I don't think game management should ever be decided at the ballot box.

    But because of sameday airborn laws I had to watch them go on their merry way! That's BS ...

    Game management policy is important. You don't rule the roost there tigermusky, the public does in a democracy and public policy is set by the public. As the citizens of Alaska have voted twice, WE don't want same day aerial hunting. Why don't you accept that your hunting rights have to be supported by the majority of the states citizens?

    I hunt moose extensively and can assure you that I've traveled more of this state than most. I see first hand the out of state hunters dumping their moose in the trash once they fly it out. Totally legal too! I know commercial hunting guides that desperately try to find a home to the thousands of pounds of moose their clients did not want to fly home. Thats reality = and if you truely lived out there you'd know it.
    Last edited by Riptide; 03-31-2008 at 18:35. Reason: mispelling

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Riptide: This was just hashed out in court! Most of the predator control measures were found to be justified. The judge layed out requirements that the remaining programs needed to meet to be legal. Those requirements have been met with the reworking of the plan. All the legal mumbo jumbo did was cost the state $$$$. If you don't like the way things are going do YOUR OWN research and present an EDUCATED testimony to the BOG. This forum sure is easy to access but it will have absolutly ZERO effect on game management in AK. Did you testify at any of the BOG meetings?

    By all means if you want to provide links to facts I would be glad to "check" them.

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    Member Riptide's Avatar
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    Default Before the White Guys

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    Oh and we had widespread predator control when those "massive moose" were along the kenai.
    Well then, where are the moose now my friend? The brown bear and wolf population are desimated along the kenai river coridor as well as the entire Kenai Peninsula. Far more than the native culture of a few thousand could have accomplished.

    The historical moose levels are nothing compared to the pre - white man. The historical sheep populations are nothing compared to the past. The historical caribou populations - well they are gone almost.

    Whats keeping these populations so low or on the verge of extinction on the Kenai Peninsula? Could it be white boys? Certainly isn't the boogy man wolf or bear now is it?

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    Member Riptide's Avatar
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    Default I Participate / Do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    Riptide: This was just hashed out in court! Most of the predator control measures were found to be justified.

    Did you testify at any of the BOG meetings?

    By all means if you want to provide links to facts I would be glad to "check" them.
    Lujon, I have to wonder why the BOG game can't follow their own mandates and then are required by the courts to be reminded of them?

    Could it be that they find their mandates to be just as problematic as the testimony of the ADF&G in 2004? These guys on the last BOG are so rightous that they ignore anything they don't like to get their way. The courts and citizens intiatives are simply the checks and balances on a run away board of game. Remember, its taken two rounds of courts to help the BOG understand their own regulations. Both times the BOG went into emergency meetings to "backdoor" the policy into extistence. Both emergency meetings allowed NO TESTIMONY!

    Yes, I have introduced regulations for consideration by the BOG at the annual meetings. I've testifed to regional AAC's. I've been succesful working with the BOG to initiate some of my suggetions even! I've testified for the last 8 years at different meetings, not every one, but many. I testify in the legislative committee hearings. Trust me LuJon, I participate in the democratic process and fight for the right to maintain it. Much more than you maybe?

    I support predator control. But it must consider all the predators and all the citizens opinions. I support hunters rights aggresively and believe that Alaska is going to suffer with this style of management.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    The brown bear and wolf population are desimated along the kenai river coridor as well as the entire Kenai Peninsula.
    Where are the studies to support these assertions?

    The historical moose levels are nothing compared to the pre - white man.
    I would like to see the studies that were recorded before "white man" arrived. This seems to be hypothesis on your part. The state had a widespread predator control program in the early 1900's and the natives had their own programs much earlier than that!

    Whats keeping these populations so low or on the verge of extinction now? Could it be white boys? Certainly isn't the boogy man wolf or bear now is it?
    Extinction?!?!? ARE YOU SERIOUS?? You do understand that with the current regulations and the limited access to the vast majority of the state there is no possible way for any species in the state to be hunted to extinction by man. Don't you? Full curl and SF50 regulations are based in sound biology. Wolves kill 12-13 moose and 30-40 caribou EACH per year!! lets see a pack of 8 wolves will kill about 100 moose per year and/or 240-320 Caribou!!! there are currently about 10,000 wolves in the state. The total human harvest of moose last year was about 7000.

    Read it for yourself
    http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/manag...management.pdf

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    Default Rule the roost?

    Riptide wrote: Game management policy is important. You don't rule the roost there tigermusky, the public does in a democracy. As the citizens have voted twice, we don't want same day aerial hunting.

    First: Anchorage decided that twice because that is where 80% of the state lives. The people in the rural communities basically had no say.

    Second: You need to understand what a democracy truly is and why we don't live in a true "direct democracy" where everyone votes on every issue, but in fact live in a "representative democracy" where repesentatives are chosen to govern. The term "democracy" is nowhere to be found in the Declaration of Independance, or in the U.S. Constitution, nor was it a term used by the founding fathers of the Republic. It was a term used at the founding of the country to refer to various undesireables: mobs, lack of standards, and a system that encourages leaders to gain power by appealling to the emotions and prejudices of the rabble.

    Ancient Athens and a few other Greek city-states had a direct democracy where every citizen voted on every single issue. It didn't work. Those city-states didn't last and most fell to mob rule and then dictators. When the term democracy came into English use in the seventeenth century it was used to denote that kind of "direct democracy" which you speak of and believe is how our country is governed.
    James Madison, writing in "The Federalist", No. 10, reflected the view of many of the framers of the Constitution when he wrote, "Such democracies have always been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have been generally short in their lives as violent in their deaths." Democracy today means "representative democracy", or to use Plato's term, a republic. We don't live in a democracy we live in a republic. We vote for others to make laws concerning our welfare.

    Since the welfare of Alaska and that of Alaskans is directly tied to complex game management issues which most of the public doesn't understand because they don't hunt; I would find it hard to believe that the founding fathers would have wanted it, if the concept was around then, to be decided at the ballot box every four years as you believe it should. I am not trying to rule the roost here, just pointing out that we don't live in the sort of democracy that you think you wake up in everyday.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigermusky View Post
    fears of closed door legislation for game management. I don't think game management should ever be decided at the ballot box. That's what got us where we are now!
    Tigermusky; closed door legislation is how things are done and everybody knows that. APHA, AOC, now SFW.........all of them send their boys to Juneau and they wear out members of the BOG with closed door meetings.

    They spend a lot of time behind closed door. Behind closed legislators door, behind administration doors, behind the closed doors of the department of law, F&G, Conservation and Protection. So does Veco (did) and anybody else that wants things done their way.......in their interest.

    I agree that ballot box management is not a good plan but that is not why we have the problems we have now. We have the problems we do now because the commercial industry grew and grew and grew. That industry has taken 10's of thousands of mature breeding stock out of the resource over the last 15-20 years. They were never limited or slowed down by ANY proposals put forward by AOC or APHA. When seasons and bag limits and horn/antler size requirements were added to protect the stock Alaskans were limited and the commercial interest just moved around to places that were not shot out yet. The ballot box initiatives have nothing to do with that.

    Crying Wolf (you know Asops fable right?) and blaming ballot box biology on our resource problem is a pretty narrow minded view. And if you think that fixing the ballot box initiative problem is going to do anything to slow down the limits and restrictions and loss of opportunity for residents then keep drinking the cool-aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigermusky View Post
    A good example is MI in the early 90's. The animal rights groups tried to shut down bear baiting and the spring black bear hunt by having a ballot initiative. Hunters groups got together and got a law on the ballot that allowed only the DNR to write hunting regs based on biologist data. The people voted down the animal rights groups bill and passed the sportsmens bill. It effectively shut the anti's out of MI. Also saved bair baiting and the spring hunt.
    Michigan is not Alaska. It's great the resident hunters united in MI and took control of their resource and stood against the anti's there. Here; the commercial interest in hunting is what drives our system not the 90% of people who buy a hunting license and there is no movement yet that is ready to stand against the commercial interest here.

    The commercial interest will handle the anti's here and that is one reason to support AOC, APHA, SFW. But just try and get those groups to advocate for residents first; (a good example of that is the 2 day residents only sheep season..........APHA, AOC, SFW..........no way would they support THAT kind of an initiative. Just keep drinking the cool-aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigermusky View Post
    I would also like to see same day airborn for everyone on wolves. Case in point: A month ago I flew a friend out to do some ptarmigan hunting. I brought my 22-250 along for fox or coyote. About 3 hrs into the hunt, what do we see? 5 wolves coming down the valley towords us! But because of sameday airborn laws I had to watch them go on their merry way! That's BS
    What you never heard of the Wyoming rule? SSS?

    But I agree with you about same day airborne wolf hunting.


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    Member Riptide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    Where are the studies to support these assertions?


    I would like to see the studies that were recorded before "white man" arrived. This seems to be hypothesis on your part. The state had a widespread predator control program in the early 1900's and the natives had their own programs much earlier than that!


    Extinction?!?!? ARE YOU SERIOUS?? You do understand that with the current regulations and the limited access to the vast majority of the state there is no possible way for any species in the state to be hunted to extinction by man. Don't you? Full curl and SF50 regulations are based in sound biology. Wolves kill 12-13 moose and 30-40 caribou EACH per year!! lets see a pack of 8 wolves will kill about 100 moose per year and/or 240-320 Caribou!!! there are currently about 10,000 wolves in the state. The total human harvest of moose last year was about 7000.

    Read it for yourself
    http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/manag...management.pdf
    Lujon, there used to be a very large caribou herd on the penisula. True, no F&G has exact numbers but there is plenty of historical references to the size of that herd. Its just about extinct now.

    The first white guys "trophy" hunted the Kenai River drainage. Thats why the first refuge in Alaska is the Kenai Moose Refuge. Why was it put there so early on? The rich and famous where abhored at the devastation of the kenai river moose. They were losing their amazing moose "nirvana" to unchecked moose hunting by - those white guys.

    The facts are that wolf and bear predator control programs are a last ditch effort. Get rid of the out of state hunters and I'd predict we'd have no problems for the short term. Where are the predator control programs being initiated. Next to the biggest population centers, not the highest concentrations of wolves my friend. Humans - not wolfs and bears are the problem. Its our constitutional right to manage game for abundance. We don't have abundance in many places. Why do germans and goofy dudes from Michigan still get to hunt our moose?

    Time to limit the white guy and I say lets start with the out of state hunter.

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    Default Lets take your side

    We need predator control alright - but its the human predator that must be downsized.
    Riptide
    Lets take your side of the story and assume that the decline in current Moose/Bear/Wolf populations are a by product of the human over population and invasion in to the ecosystem. Making that assumption I have three questions:
    1. Do you have kids?
    2. Have you had a vasectomy?
    3. Has your wife/significant other had her tubes tied.

    Respectfully
    Andrew

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    Member Riptide's Avatar
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    Default Our Kids = Our Moose!

    Quote Originally Posted by Toddler View Post
    Riptide
    1. Do you have kids?
    Respectfully
    Andrew
    Of course I have kids, every kid in Alaska is my kid on this issue. I intend to make sure we have enough moose that they have a strong back and clear mind!!! Moose meat is the best for us Alaskans!

    I'm sure that you too agree that out of state hunters must go. They've overbread and need to dwindle in numbers. We have kids to feed in Alaska and these out of state hunters are wasting our moose meat, especially in the regions we've been testing predator control programs.

    Have you seen the price tag the state invested for every wolf killed in the McGrath predator control program! Nearly $46,000 per wolf! Geez, lets give the ADF&G some choppers a few $. Not only are these out of state hunters wasting our moose they are gobling up our precious funds for managing our wildlife resources.

    GO HOME OUT OF STATE HUNTERS - OUR KIDS NEED OUR MOOSE!!!!

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    Default Racism

    Riptide, I think that in in the year 2008, with the chance we may see the first woman President or the first African American President, you should refrain from such inflammatory racial rhetoric such as "white man" in your future posts. It does nothing to prove your point with a group that is as racially diverse as AOD or Alaska in general. It doesn't belong here and I will, to quote your own words, "Rule the Roost" on that if I have to.

    Tigermusky

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    Default Non Native

    TigerMusky,

    What would you suggest we call our fair skinned, non aboriginal cohorts in this management minagerie?

    I am not trying to piss anybody off by calling one group white. Just noting that one group of Alaskan's are the most prolific hunters in Alaska and certainly have had a significant impact on our wildlife resources. I need to name that group in my discussions here so I've called them White Men with no racially deragotory intentions.

  18. #18

    Default Here's one problem

    You state that the public voted to ban aerial hunting. Well that right there is the problem. We should not be voting at all on how to manage game! Ballot box biology is B.S. A citizen should not be able to vote on whether to allow hunting or not. Just because Joe Blow doesn't hunt, he should not be able to vote on a stupid ballot to ban hunting. Let the F&G and the BOG manage our game. I am not saying I always agree with what they do, but I do believe they make a pretty educated decision. There is no reason that the citizens of Anchorage should be able to gather enough votes in their green/liberal town that stops me from doing something that I live on and depend on. No one should be voting on whether you want aerial wolf control or not. That is a management based decision that should be on any ballot.

  19. #19
    Member Riptide's Avatar
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    Default Ballet Box Policy

    What you term Ballot Box Biology is what I term Ballot Box Policy. Where better to set public policy than by a vote of the public? The two citizen initiatives that passed by vote dealt with policy issues, not allocation issues. They did not deal with management for abundance issues. Just policy.

    You state that "anchorage is a green/liberal town where the votes for citizen initiatives are obtained". That shows you lack of knowledge of the initiative process and the voting record of Alaska citizens. A citizen initiative must gather signatures from a wide range of districts in Alaska. Just Anchorage would not satisfy the requirements. Check the facts and you'll see the citizens of ALL of Alaska want to vote on aerial predator control by the rich and privelaged.

    What about these native, rural districts?:

    " In 2000, 63 percent of Alaskans rejected a referendum that would have made unconstitutional all wildlife ballot initiatives. Now, 56,000 Alaska voters are once again demanding that their voices be heard on the issue of aerial predator control, in a ballot measure that has already been certified.

    These were and are Alaskans speaking out, not Outsiders. And contrary to Alaska Outdoor Council rhetoric, thousands of rural Alaskans voted against it -- people who truly do depend on subsistence. Shishmaref, Klawock, Sleetmute, Kivalina, Pedro Bay, Shageluk, Buckland, Anaktuvuk Pass, White Mountain, Koyuk, Chignik Lagoon, New Stuyahok, Kotzebue, and more -- many Native Bush communities voted against aerial predator control in 2000. To say that these people don't understand the nature of subsistence or wolves is an insult to Native traditions and cultures."


    Hunters are not the only vested user group of our wildlife resources. Since the BOG only has hunters or trappers on the board the only representation the majority of Alaskan's have had is in the courts and by initiative. Democracy only works if there equal and fair representation!




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    Default just a little history...

    Riptide, in pre white man days, as you call them, you have stated there was no predator control. Did you know that wolf denning was a native Alaskan tradition, as well as bear denning? Why was that not predator control?

    Allowing hunters to expend their own resources to check wolf and bear numbers is the strategy used by the state to make the best use of their very limited finances. ADF&G receives very little money from the general fund. Most comes from license sales and Pitman Robertson funds. The non hunting public does not pay for the management of Alaska's game: a small percentage of them do seem to spend millions of dollars in opposition of its management, however. For a greater say in Alaska's management, maybe some money should be placed where it can do some good. Buy the helicopter time for ADF&G personnel to harvest wolves and/or bear. Pay for controlled burns and other browse enhancement programs. Charter the planes to do aerial moose and sheep surveys. Instead of ranting about how bad hunters are, put that money back into conservation, as the hunters are doing.

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