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Thread: Borescope Challenge

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    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    Default Borescope Challenge

    So do you think you are getting your favorite hunting rifle clean after you shoot it???
    I did until today, I bought a borescope to check out rifles I might want to buy and to know what was going on in my own barrels. I went to the range and fired my Benelli R-1 chamber in 300 WM over 40 rounds with no cleaning. I came home and cleaned it as always, making sure that only a clean patch came out after all cleaning. I then had a look with my new borescope and WOW was I in for a shock. I had more copper than a mine in the first 1/3 of the barrel, real bad fouling around the gas port. Took me another 2 hours to get it looking good. I can’t help but wonder how long I have been shooting dirty guns that I would have bet money were clean. I wish I had the camera adapter but it cost around 250 bucks...
    So is your gun barrel really clean???

    Steve

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    All of mine are squeaky clean, but then I've had a Hawkeye bore scope for over 10 years.

    What I have learned from the use of a borescope while cleaning.

    (1) I no longer use bore brushes.

    (2) Which bore cleaners do a better job.

    (3) Breakfree CLP, is the most effective way of removing carbon from the bore.

    (4) How fast a throat wears. How few shooters know what the inside of a barrel looks like and how few know what they are looking at.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Thumbs up Talk more about it...

    This is interesting guys, and I want to hear more, please.

    There have been many posts/threads over the past couple of years about rifle cleaning methods, cleaners, etc. I'd be interested in hearing more from you guys who own borescopes, e.g., how much it cost, which cleaners appear to be the best for copper removal or carbon, how quick throats appeared to wear out, etc.

    Bring it on....

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    In pursuit of awesome accuracy I could see when being perfectly clean may matter, but I don't think your rifles need to be perfect all the time. I know lots of people are going to scoff at me, but did your gun stop shooting well before you got your borescope or does it shoot better now that you clean that bore better?

    On the other hand... I am interested in checking out bores with a scope too, but we have a dandy scope at work for checking blades on jet engines that "could make" a great rifle borescope.

    I don't need my guns to be that squeaky clean but if it makes you feel good then that is all that matters.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    First off, let me get these questions from both you fellows answered by giving you this link.http://www.gradientlens.com/

    I hope the information found on that link will answer a few of the question for you guys.

    Last first, question? Does it have to be that clean? It does when you put it away. Unless you want to see some corrosion down the road. There is nothing you can cover metal with that will stop the Vapor phase. It is better to remove any covering, be it copper or carbon and for sure no oil in the bore, to help protect the rifling. It takes what is known as a Vapor phase inhibitor to protect for storage.

    Does accuracy suffer from a clean barrel? No easy answer to that one. I can say some do and some don't. You are better off to take a couple of fouler shots, or to use a lightly oiled patch for the first shot. I'm talking about extreme accuracy here, not for hunting. Just a lightly oiled patch before hunting in a "clean" Barrel is fine for hunting/first shot.

    If you are looking to see what the barrel is capable of for accuracy, you sure as heck want to start with a clean barrel.

    Now as to how I clean barrels, and what I have found using a bore. scope.

    I start with a clean well fit patch on a jag tip, using a bore guide, I push the solvent soaked patch all through the bore until it drops off the tip out side the muzzle. I repeat until the patch comes out clean, showing no carbon or blue on the patches. Next I use 91% or higher Isopropyl Alcohol on clean patches to get all the solvent out of the bore. I then use one or two patches to dry the bore. I next repeat the cleaning using a know carbon remover to get the carbon out until I know it's clean. Again with the Alcohol patches and dry.

    Did you notice I did not use a bore brush? Why add more of the material I'm trying to remove? Copper is a large part of bronze used in a bore brush.

    Now I want you to understand I don't have a factory barrel on any firearm (rifle) I own. They are many times smoother than a factory barrel. They don't have any tool marks that can be seen at 10X magnification.

    What does that mean? A properly broken-in barrel, cleans much faster.

    Here are a few do's and a few don't for cleaning a bore.

    (1) use a bore guide (always)

    (2) use a one piece cleaning rod.

    (3) use well fitting patches.

    (4) wipe the rod off after each pass down the bore with a clean cloth.

    Now for the don'ts.

    (1) Never get aggressive with the rod at the muzzle, when you pull the rod back, don't let the rod whip around. You'll screw the crown up in short order.

    (2) Cover the butt stock before you start dripping solvent on the stock at the bore guide. This will take the finish off the stock if you don't.

    (3) Never re-use a cleaning patch.


    Buy your patches in bulk (1,000) at a time, from Brownells. Cover all the different patches size you need. This will stop any chance of you not having what you need on hand, and keep you from getting the wrong size patch stuck in the bore.

    Follow the few steps above and you will get'er done!
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Default Bore Revelations

    Borescope would be excellent way to check one's cleaning effectiveness for sure. I had a gunsmith look over my new ("pre-owned") rifle, and my 2-yr old pistol as well-I wondered how I was doing taking care of it. About the pistol bore, he recommended Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner. I wondered how to get more info about caring for these guns.

    To learn more about rifle care, I found a Field & Stream book written by Chris Christian, "Rifle Maintenance Handbook", published in 2007. He talks about the place of cleaning tools, cleaning solvents (for powder residue) and other solvents (for lead, copper or moly), and why ammonia-based solvents should not be left to dry (barrel etching), and using a bore guide. He specifically discussed Break-Free Carbon Cutter for the carbon buildup on gas-operated semi-autos, why close-tolerance parts like trigger assemblies should be cleaned differently, how carbeurator cleaner can save some money and why WD-40 should not be used in firearm lubrication. I thought the book was a fine resource.

    Maybe I oughta get a borescope next year and inspect that rifle bore real close! Thanks for the post.

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    Thanks for the information thus far. What have you guys seen with throat erosion, especially with some of the hotter cartridges, e.g., 257 Weatherby?

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    I quit cleaning my guns some time ago. I discovered that accuracy is better with a fouled barrel and I dont mean one or two shots but a well fouled barrel, at least in my guns. Scrubbing and foaming and all that good stuff doesn't get done much anymore, once a year and its usually during winter. Then I have to shoot quite a few rounds to reseason the barrel. A dry patch from time to time and thats it. When accuracy starts to drop I'll clean then but with my once a year cleaning I dont think I'll get to where I see accuracy fall.

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    Member ripnlip's Avatar
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    any specific brand of copper remover?????

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Doc: That is the fun spot with a bore scope. When you look at the throats of the badly overbore ctgs. like the Wby's, you will see the alligator back signs in the throat by 500 rounds. Some of them will start showing in as little as 100 rounds.

    There are several ways to go with bore cleaner, all of them work to one degree or another (except Hoppes #9). It comes down to how much time you have to get the barrel clean. The foam works if you have 10 to 12 hours to let it work. Shooters Choice you can get it really clean in 30 to 45 minutes. Montana Extreme in 15 minutes flat. This is if you shoot under 25 rounds between cleanings. Sweets 7.62 is vary aggressive, most barrel makers discourage it's use.

    I have a do it yourself formula that makes one gallon at a time. I don't use it anymore because I found the premix Montana Extreme works with less hassle. I have been buying cases of quarts, so I don't have any immediate need to run around getting the ingredients and finding the proper dark gallon bottle to mix with. But it is cheaper to do it yourself.

    By the way, unless you can get some banana oil (like in the old #9) to add to some of these solvents, you will not be making friends at home. I'm lucky as my better half, hates the smell of Hoppes. Of course she prefers that I clean in the shop, with any of these solvents.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ripnlip View Post
    any specific brand of copper remover?????
    I have tried all the copper removers at one time or another and no longer when I do clean my guns use any of them except for........Wipe Out! It just plain works and there no 3000 runs of a brush and patches and no stink in the house. I have used a pseudo bore light and WipeOut trumps all of em. I do the normal scrub with Hoppes to remove the powder deposits and then foam barrel with WipeOut and walk away, several hours later run the patch through and shine light down bore. If theres any traces I do it again, you can even let it sit overnight. WipeOut takes the elbow grease out of the equation completely!

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    So do you think you are getting your favorite hunting rifle clean after you shoot it???
    I did until today, I bought a borescope to check out rifles I might want to buy and to know what was going on in my own barrels. I went to the range and fired my Benelli R-1 chamber in 300 WM over 40 rounds with no cleaning. I came home and cleaned it as always, making sure that only a clean patch came out after all cleaning. I then had a look with my new borescope and WOW was I in for a shock. I had more copper than a mine in the first 1/3 of the barrel, real bad fouling around the gas port. Took me another 2 hours to get it looking good. I canít help but wonder how long I have been shooting dirty guns that I would have bet money were clean. I wish I had the camera adapter but it cost around 250 bucks...
    So is your gun barrel really clean???

    Steve

    I just saw this and thought you might find it of interest. It works on the Hawkeye and everything you need costs 300.00. A really neat idea.

    http://www.proscopehr.com/
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Real good thread.

    I'll be breaking in a new barrel soon and working up a load at the same time. My approach was going to be, clean after first shot, clean after next two shots, clean after next 3 shots, then clean after each five shot group. I'm plannning on shooting about 80 - 100 rounds. I'll be using Barnes TTSX bullets.

    Also, I was thinking of wrapping some ice in a wash cloth to wipe down the barrel after each shot except when cleaning to speed the cooling process.

    Any comments or recomendations?

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    MT Rfileman: Barrel break-in is a controversial topic that has been discussed on this forum several times over the years, and you'll see strong opinions both ways, i.e., it's very important Vs. it's a waste of time. It comes down to a personal choice, and my choice has always been to break them in. If you also choose to be a barrel break-in guy, you might find the following article by Dan Lilja to be helpful...it's what I do.

    http://www.riflebarrels.com/support/...aintenance.htm

    Also, while I'm a big fan of TSX bullets for hunting, I don't use them for break-in. I prefer to use modest charges with a jacketed bullet, e.g., Speer or Sierra. Not only are these bullets much cheaper, but I think the gilding metal of the jacket works better for break-in than the proprietary copper of the TSX. Lastly, have fun breaking-in your barrel...use it as a time to get to know your rifle.

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    Default break-in

    I broke in my factory barrel in with sierra gamekings and nosler ballistics while I was kinda working up a load with the rifle. I cleaned after one, clean after two, clean after three, and so on up to 10, then after every 20 for about 8-10 boxes of ammo. Now, it shoots good after one fouling shot and up to 40 rounds without cleaning. That was about 400 rounds ago and still shoots .5 inch groups (with the gamekings).

    I am no expert, but I would think using something very cold to speed up the cooling process of metal could prolly be harmful to the barrel. I would think that after heating it and cooling it several times would change the integrity of the material and change vibrations throughout the barrel....but, like I said, I'm no expert.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    A note about Dan' cleaning procedures. I have been giving away quart bottles of Butches Bore Shine to my friends that are out of solvent (along with Shooters Choice) since I have tried the Montana Extreme. One thing I have noticed about barrel break-in with Dan's barrels. That following the one shot break-in procedure, you feel the point where the cooper fouling quits as there will be less resistance to the rod stroke. This is something I have never felt with a factory barrel.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    I also have several of Dan Lilja's barrels, and I'll second Al's comment about the bore noticeably smoothing out pretty early on as you break it in properly.

    ...I'll have to check out the Montana Extreme solvent, as I'm a big fan of Butch's Boreshine. Actually, I do a fairly quick initial cleaning with Butch's, getting out all the powder residue. After all the sovent is out, I then run a patch soaked with a 50/50 solution of Hoppe's #9 and Kroil, which I leave in the bore overnight with the rifle upside down in the corner on a paper towel. It's really a pretty easy cleaning procedure, and it works very well.

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    Default kroil

    doc, I was just gonna ask if anyone has tried the kroil method. Sounds like a pretty good method from what I've heard. I've used butches and sveral others.

    Is the "wipe out" brand now called "knock out"? Never tried the stuff...is it worth it? Thinkin bout goin with the kroil method. Where do you get the kroil oil???

    Thanks

  19. #19

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    Thanks for the tips. I had read Lilja's break in process before, but thanks for bringing it to my attention again. I don't think it would hurt to clean after each shot for the first 10 or so. I'm getting both the Butch's and Montana extreme. The guy at the gun store told me to be careful of Montnan Extreme. He said if you leave it soaking too long it would damage the bore. But it would probably be a more effective cleaner at the range between groups.

    Using Sierra bullets for the break in sounds good too. Doc, what more specifically is the effect of the Barnes bullets vs the Sierra?

    Ripnlip, you make a good point but I figure there wont be any extreme temp changes as the barrel should only be *warm* after one shot and I would just give it a quick wipe down with ice wrapped in a wash cloth. and not cold soak it.

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    As to break in...some barrelmakers say yes, others say now. its moot for me because I have always shot "no" rifles.

    As to cleaning...I do it every 100 shots or so on Blasers. I have a Swede M41B I usually clean every 50 shots. I use Hoppes then Barnes/Sweets/Butches (whatever is around) minimum of 3 wets of Hoppes, then dry, then three wets of cutter, and so on. Blaser barrels are so smooth and hard they clean up super fast. The old Swede (which looks like a nightmare with a borescope) could leak copper for 6 weeks of daily cleaning to I usually just so the 3/3, pack it up and shoot 5 shot .364 groups with it next week

    Good luck!

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