Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 46

Thread: .308 for Moose

  1. #21
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,418

    Exclamation 308=30-06..

    ..and just so things are equal, an '06 equals a 300 mag which of course is equal to a 300 RUM, etc, etc...So..... a 308 is equal to a 300 RUM! They use the same bullets, how could one perform better on game than the other?

    I just want to be sure everyone is even in their thinking.

    Isn't there logic in this? A 30 caliber bullet is a 30 caliber bullet, right. Of course the trajectory advantage of almost three inches at 300 yards would go to the 300 RUM.

    If we are going to use HE 308 and LE 300 RUM, no difference, right?

    Does anyone disagree?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  2. #22

    Default

    Close only counts in horse shoes. You can not out push a 180gr bullet out of a 308 as fast as you can out of a 30-06. It is physically impossible because the 30-06 case has more powder capacity. Hornady has a 180gr moving out of a 30-06 at 2900fps. I have a load of my own crossing the Chrono. at 2865-2893 and shoots just under an inch at 100 yds. You can not even get close with a 308. Handloading the 30-06 is when it is at it's best sense most factory loads do not use the potential of the 30-06 case because of older rifles. I will say it again sense we are not playing horse-shoes close does not count - the 30-06 hits harder, can use more bullet weights, has more practical use and therefore is more effective on more types of game than the 308. The accracy of a 308 really only comes in to play in competition. I have four 30-06's and for three of them I have developed hunting loads that shoot 3/4" and under. One has a boone and crockett scope and when we practice with 180gr and 200gr loads me and two of my friends hit gallan milk jugs filled with water starting at 300, then 400, then 450, and the last juge at 500. At 500 yds you will not have more energy with any 308 180 or 200 gr bullet or for that matter any weight bullet.

  3. #23
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    Close only counts in horse shoes. You can not out push a 180gr bullet out of a 308 as fast as you can out of a 30-06. It is physically impossible because the 30-06 case has more powder capacity. Hornady has a 180gr moving out of a 30-06 at 2900fps. I have a load of my own crossing the Chrono. at 2865-2893 and shoots just under an inch at 100 yds. You can not even get close with a 308. Handloading the 30-06 is when it is at it's best sense most factory loads do not use the potential of the 30-06 case because of older rifles. I will say it again sense we are not playing horse-shoes close does not count - the 30-06 hits harder, can use more bullet weights, has more practical use and therefore is more effective on more types of game than the 308. The accracy of a 308 really only comes in to play in competition. I have four 30-06's and for three of them I have developed hunting loads that shoot 3/4" and under. One has a boone and crockett scope and when we practice with 180gr and 200gr loads me and two of my friends hit gallan milk jugs filled with water starting at 300, then 400, then 450, and the last juge at 500. At 500 yds you will not have more energy with any 308 180 or 200 gr bullet or for that matter any weight bullet.
    So, I take it you disagree.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  4. #24

    Default

    My reply is only in response to the 308 win being the same as the 30-06 wich it is not in proformace. In reference to what you have said I believe there is a lot that could be discussed and I am sure a lot of ground would be covered. The 308 win HE ammo does not come close to the 30-06 lite mag loads or handloads. All 30 cal bullets even though they are 30 cal. bullets even of the same brand and make do not and will not in different cartridges preform the same due to velocity. So your logic in this matter is not sound and is gratuitous (unnecessary and unjustifiable) Logic does not discover truth it only points out error. Example - 2+2=4 this is logical and this is true - but 2 men from Mars+ 2 men from Mars=4 men from Mars is also logical but this is not true, there are no men from mars. Every thing is not the same nor acts the same when put under different circumstances especially when velocity is figured in on how a bullet's energy will act upon itself and the target. It is not logical to think that a 308 will dispatch game in the exact same way that a 30-06 will or that a 30-06 will dispatch game in the exact same way that a 300Win Mag will if all things are equal except velocity, and the velocities of these cartridges are not the same, ect.ect.ect..

  5. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Bethel, Cantwell, Fort Yukon, Skagway, Chevak and Point Hope
    Posts
    967

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post

    Example - 2+2=4 this is logical and this is true - but 2 men from Mars+ 2 men from Mars=4 men from Mars is also logical but this is not true, there are no men from mars.
    Are you saying that Mars only has women residents?
    Allen Glore

  6. #26
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,418

    Default Aristotle was a Mole...

    No, I'm being facetious, I think that's a Martian word.

    I'm bored so I try to pick a fight...

    I'm very well aware of the ballistic capabilities of both the 308 and the 30-06. I have handloaded about 50,000 rounds for each one and have taken at least a dozen different species with them, a total of about 60 animals.

    I didn't really have a point but if I did it would be that how much difference can 150 fps make for a well placed shot for bullets of equal weight and caliber. The only difference is velocity, and not a lot of that. Someone said, a 308 is equal to a 30-06 at 50 yards closer. I don't know how accurate that is but we could look at the numbers. A 30-06 is easily capable of 2800 fps, at normal pressures, with a 180 grain bullet. The 308 will probably do 2650 from the same barrel length as the 30-06 (24"). Certainly some where the '06 load is doing 2650 fps. I've shot lots of stuff, I don't see big differences in the animals behavior after being hit with either one. Oh, I recall some remarkable one shot drops with both calibers and some long runs after hits from both calibers also. And we would expect the same performance from the '06 farther out than with the 308, so we could just get closer with the 308.

    I ain't complaining about either caliber. And I also think the old '06 is about as good as it gets for an all rounder. I would prefer it over the magnums. Which brings me to my second almost point. Is there a big difference in field performance between the '06 and the 300 Winnie? I don't see anything notable there either. So I would say the difference is small between the 308 and the 30-06 and small between the 30-06 and the 300 mag. To realize any appreciable difference in killing power, we must move up to the 338 Win class with it's heavier and thicker bullet at about the same velocity. I have seen a lot of difference in the reaction of animals when hit soundly with the 250 grain 338.

    Now, we could quibble about the real advantages of velocity and how much is enough or too much.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  7. #27
    Member jimsmith80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    23

    Lightbulb

    Ah yes, how many spirits can dance on the head of a pin? Dont know, neither will the moose from the same shot with either of these calibers, hey I'm just glad the debate is about 2 calibers that can BOTH do the job. oh and I presume that both the guns in the pig charging had the same leanth barrels, and same bullets, with the same impact, and both animals where both in the same mood, with the same amout of calories in their wittle tumies, right?? no two situations in hunting are ever the same thats why one moose will drop dead from a 22, and the next will charge after 5 rounds from a 375 H&H, neither of those two things happen 100% of the time thats why we pick an adiquate calilber in a gun we can shoot, with a good bullet, and leave the rest to the hunting gods.

  8. #28

    Wink

    First and foremost I think it’s bad to advocate shooting a moose in the neck or head… I agree with Jim, just pick an adequate caliber with a good bullet and make a good shot (body shot =)

    Not to pick a fight cause I’m bored and its 1:30 am…. But seriously Murphy…. 50,000 rounds hand loaded in both calibers… sounds like a stretch to me….

  9. #29

    Default

    Only in america, I think this was great and I had a lot of fun. When it comes down to it use the cal. that does the job and as for me if they said, "pick up just one of the cal. you have in all the rifles you own" I would pick my 30-06 just as some would pick their 308. thank for the fun

  10. #30
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    881

    Thumbs up 308 Win

    The 308 Win will work fine for moose. Just keep your shots 250 yards and under and use a good bullet.

    My favorite:

    180gr Nosler Accubond
    Varget @ 44.2
    CCI Br 2 primers
    WW cases

    or

    IMR 4895 @ 43.6 (Very Accurate) Good Moose Load
    168 Barnes TSX
    Fed 210 Match Primer
    FC Nickle Cases
    Alaska

  11. #31

    Default

    Hey, I will be posting my findings on some accurate hunting loads with good velocities out of my Kimber 30-06 in the handloading tread sometime this week. Oh by the way for all you 308 fans I use a Mod 750 Rem. 30-06 carbine (18 inch barrel) in thick cover hunting hogs so I can have at least 308 velocities when up close and need a lot of rounds real quick. Did I say "so I can have at least 308 velosities." I am so glad I live in america!! I have traveled lectured (concerning my work) and hunted in many places in this world and the only place I have not been that is left in my mind is ALASKA. You guys must really have a lot of fun. just beartooth

  12. #32
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    3,330

    Default

    From a response I wrote on the Cabelas site a while back.

    Using the Hornady Book for top velocities.


    30-06
    ..... 150 grain bullet.....3,100 fps
    308..........150 grain bullet.....2,900fps

    30-06......165 grain bullet........2900fps
    308...........165grain bullet........2700fps

    30-06:.....180 grain bullets.......2800fps
    308;.......180 grain bullet..........2600fps

    30-06....190 grain......2,700fps
    308........190 grain.....2,500 fps


    30-06....220 grain....2,600fps
    308.... none listed


    Barnes Book:

    30-06.... 220 grain....2,400 fps They used 3.5 grains less IMR 4350 than Hornady.
    308.........220 grain....2,300fps

    30-06.....250 grain...2,300 fps
    308.........250 grain...2,200fps



    NOTE***** NUMBER DON'T LIE,,,BUT,,, YOU CAN LIE WITH NUMBERS

    These are the hottest loads and not the most accurate. Nor are they the average max loads.

    This may not make sense because I used all the books to find the hottest load for that bullet weight and barrel length.

    This also shows you that much of this is a rifle to rifle comparison since there is a huge difference between rifles, chamber fit, rifling, brass, primers, outside temp and altitude....


    22 inch barrel:

    308:... 168 grain== 2711fps.......180 grain== 2718fps......200 grain== 2463fps
    30-06: .................2842fps.........................2 836fps.......................2680fps


    24 inch barrel


    308.....168 grain= = 2813fps......180grain==2600fps.....200grain==2460f ps
    30-06......................2980fps................... .....2800...........................2680fps
    300win mag.............3179.............................3 103...........................2908fps

    26 inch barrel

    308.....168 grain = =2849fps......180grain==2631fps.....200grain==2512 fps
    30-06......................2898fps................... .....2840...........................2638fps
    300win mag.............3195.............................3 144...........................2972fps


    For an average of loads that MAY be accurate. You should probably figure 75 to 100 fps less.
    Plus there is the matter of getting a rifle to fire longer heavier bullets with any accuracy...



    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  13. #33

    Default

    A lot to think about and digest. Isn't fun to handload, use different rilfes, bullets, chambers (from factory to custom) - I just love guns, handloading, shooting and hunting. I hope this year brings more exciting memories as we shoot and hunt.

  14. #34

    Default A final word on the 30-06

    The 30-06 over the years has done a very creditable job of serving as one of our best and certainly most flexible, all around cartridges for the hunter who hunts a variety of game. Of course it is not as flat shooting as the 6mm's or some other smaller calibers, nor as hard hitting as the larger magnums, but it will take game on which the smaller calibers are inadequate and when loaded with it’s heaviest loadings, does not deliver anywhere near the recoil of the big magnums. The 30-06 has a wide range of power, sufficiently flat trajectory, unquestioned accuracy, reasonable recoil and unusually broad variety of bullets weights. Not only that, no matter where you are hunting, you can count on the stores having 30-06 ammo. The many over the years who have and those who still buy a 30-06 surely are not doing so out of a lack of knowledge. The 06 is like a good horse, you ride him because he won’t surprise you or let you down. You can take it in terrain or circumstances that you did not expect to find and it is so versatile in it’s performance that it will do the job and not let you down. The 30-06 will be here until a completely new and radical way to kill game is developed. If the new radical way comes before I die, you shoot it. I have in my 30-06 all that I generally need. The question or debate is not whether certain other cartridges will dispatch large game more quickly, or are better suited for varmints. The point is, will any of the other cartridges do all these things better than the 06.? To be honest and truthful, one has to answer that it is doubtful. And what is so amazing with all the shooting advancements in bullets and powders with match grade rifles in 30-06 being made by major gun makers, the 30-06 just keeps getting better.
    Last edited by beartooth; 03-20-2007 at 11:05. Reason: misspelled something

  15. #35
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JeTCraFTeR View Post
    First and foremost I think it’s bad to advocate shooting a moose in the neck or head… I agree with Jim, just pick an adequate caliber with a good bullet and make a good shot (body shot =)

    Not to pick a fight cause I’m bored and its 1:30 am…. But seriously Murphy…. 50,000 rounds hand loaded in both calibers… sounds like a stretch to me….
    Well, I don't actually know how many rounds. But, I started loading for the 30-06 in 1967. I shot competitively with the 30-06 Garrand rifle for about six years, (kept one match M-1 after going to the M-1A) I loaded all my ammo for practice and match and for the most of the team members and we shot about 2,500 rounds per year each. Then came the 308 M14/M-1A for the next 4 or 5 years, same scenario. I loaded 30-06 and 308 commercially and sold custom ammo for about 12 years, for matches and hunting. I loaded for and hunted with the '06 for forty years. I'm sure I've loaded for over a hundred customers to hunt with their 30-06 rifles, and a very comparable number for the 308. I shot 60 rounds of my handloads through two 30-06 rifles last Saturday when the temp was -4 F. I shoot about 100-200 rounds each week through the winter and more in the summer and a significant number of these rounds are in 30-06. Now that I think about, you're right. That number is way too low!


    Now that we've hijacked this thread completely I guess we can turn it over to the originator. We are bored when we argue on the same side of the issue, agree and still discuss it. Will this winter ever end.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  16. #36
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    From a response I wrote on the Cabelas site a while back.

    Using the Hornady Book for top velocities.


    30-06
    ..... 150 grain bullet.....3,100 fps
    308..........150 grain bullet.....2,900fps

    30-06......165 grain bullet........2900fps
    308...........165grain bullet........2700fps

    30-06:.....180 grain bullets.......2800fps
    308;.......180 grain bullet..........2600fps

    30-06....190 grain......2,700fps
    308........190 grain.....2,500 fps


    30-06....220 grain....2,600fps
    308.... none listed


    Barnes Book:

    30-06.... 220 grain....2,400 fps They used 3.5 grains less IMR 4350 than Hornady.
    308.........220 grain....2,300fps

    30-06.....250 grain...2,300 fps
    308.........250 grain...2,200fps



    NOTE***** NUMBER DON'T LIE,,,BUT,,, YOU CAN LIE WITH NUMBERS

    These are the hottest loads and not the most accurate. Nor are they the average max loads.

    This may not make sense because I used all the books to find the hottest load for that bullet weight and barrel length.

    This also shows you that much of this is a rifle to rifle comparison since there is a huge difference between rifles, chamber fit, rifling, brass, primers, outside temp and altitude....


    22 inch barrel:

    308:... 168 grain== 2711fps.......180 grain== 2718fps......200 grain== 2463fps
    30-06: .................2842fps.........................2 836fps.......................2680fps


    24 inch barrel


    308.....168 grain= = 2813fps......180grain==2600fps.....200grain==2460f ps
    30-06......................2980fps................... .....2800...........................2680fps
    300win mag.............3179.............................3 103...........................2908fps

    26 inch barrel

    308.....168 grain = =2849fps......180grain==2631fps.....200grain==2512 fps
    30-06......................2898fps................... .....2840...........................2638fps
    300win mag.............3195.............................3 144...........................2972fps


    For an average of loads that MAY be accurate. You should probably figure 75 to 100 fps less.
    Plus there is the matter of getting a rifle to fire longer heavier bullets with any accuracy...



    This is a lot of number crunching of some very well known ballistics but, the question is, can a moose tell the difference in the 150-200 fps impact velocity?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  17. #37
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    Have a Sako 308 and it is a great gun boy is it accurate . The 308 is a good cartridge but it is not a 30-06 with "just" 50yds less trajectory. Friend of mine and I were hunting russian bore down in the Pearl River swamp. He shot a 350 pound bore and it charged him and He emptied his 308 180gr partition (four rounds) I had to finish it. two days later I shot 382 pound bore coming right at us in a dead run at 40yds and dropped him with one 200gr round out of a 30-06. I have seen both cartridges over the last 34 years of serious hunting and a 308 is not a 30-06 and never will be no matter how you try to max the handloads. Is the 308 more accruate if all things are equal YES! Is the 308 a better killer than the 30-06 if all things equal NO! Will it kill a moose of course it will so will a 30-30. The 308 is not the all around 30 cal. that the 30-06 is and never will be. By the way with my new Kimber 30-06 today at the range I shot a .389inch group with 165gr bullet and a 200gr load .875 inch group. 2926-2951fps with the 165 and 2598-2632fps with the 200gr.load. Powder for both was IMR4350
    As you know the 30-06's biggest advantage over the 308 is it's ability to handle the heavier bullets better (faster). No. They are not the same, but with the exact same bullet and 200 fps difference, it's hard to tell.

    Is your Kimber a new Montana in 30-06? I'd like to try one of those. That is a very good combo, light and mild mannered. 180 grains at 2800 fps is a very good combo with many different bullets. Partition, A-frame, Kodiaks, Hawk..... a long list here.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  18. #38
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    3,330

    Default

    Oh, thirty-ought-six how I love thee.
    Thou shootith the large critters with grace.
    Just as thee are’st able to slay the small.

    Thou come’ist in many brands of rifle
    And thou art most easy to find in villages
    Where thy holy name is spoken in broken English

    The bullets for thee are many
    As are the powders with many numbers.
    While thy case take’th many a loading

    Thy name is legend
    In lands where rilfemen live
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  19. #39

    Default

    Ok, I've been lurking here for a good long time and this post finally pulled me out of the woodwork.

    Realisticly the numbers don't matter as much as the limitations of the shooter. Both cartridges will put a very large number of bullets in their intended performance envelope. They will hit the target and expand as intended. It really comes down to the guy (or girl) working the trigger and not the gun.

    In factory ammunition the 308 is loaded to higher pressures and the gap between the two cartridges closes to the point where, I believe, it really doesn't matter.

    The reloading arguement is touchy. Again, here is my opinion on the situation. The only reason I can forsee loading either of these cartridges to the hilt for would be for flatter trajectory. A good bullet properly placed from either 30-06 or .308 will down a moose without any problem to around 250. Can you shoot further than that? Sure, if you want. But your first cartridge of choise out at this range probably wouldn't be a 308 or 06. I guess I can't see a realistic situation I would take one where the other wouldn't do the same thing. Good shot placement is worth a lot more than a few hundred feet per second. If you're sticking yourself in a situation where you need that few hundred feet per second then you might want to ask yourself if it's a shot you actually feel comfortable taking.

    What do you lose with the 308? I used this page because, my ballistic software is in Fairbanks. http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html
    Looks to be spitting out decent numbers. With 2800fps for the 06 and 2600fps for the 308 and a BC of .400 for the 180grn bullet I picked a 6" point blank siting (POI between 3" high or low) and I got:

    For the 30-06
    Point blank 0 - 233yds
    Point blank max range 273yds
    Energy @ max point blank 1943

    For 308
    Point blank 0 - 217yds
    Point blank max range 255yrds
    Energy @ max point blank 1706

    For moose you could probably tack a few more inches of slop on that and get 30 or 40 more yards out of both cartridges but as it stands there is less than 20 yards difference between the two and a bit over 200 ft-lbs at max point blank. Load a premium 165 instead and you'll probably get both past 300 which is a long shot for for anyone under hunting conditions and should be taken with some consideration.

    If you want to shoot a 308 and have 06 numbers get some of that Fedral high energy or hornady light magnum. Handloaders can't get the velocity that the factories can get with that ammunition. It would be foolish to try (at least without pressure equiptment and a lot of math and some duplexed loads).

    Both are good all around cartridges and realisticly there isn't much difference between the two.

  20. #40
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    5,106

    Default

    Boy did I stir a hornets nest

    If we take the emotional response of the -06 is bigger and faster and hence has to be better, and concentrate on the numbers dispationately, we'll see the .308 pushes the same bullets the same speed at closer range. I chose 50 yds, and if you look at bullet charts, you'll see the -06 looses it's roughly 150 fps advantage at the 50 yd line.

    Hence, choose your bullet, say a 180 gr partition, shoot a moose at 50 yds with the .308, and 100 yds with the -06, each bullet is hitting each moose at rougly the identicle velocity. Hence, there is no way the -06 has more authority, as it is no longer an -06, it is a 180 gr nosler partion traveling at say 2600 fps, no more, no less.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •