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Thread: Bear Trapping

  1. #1
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Bear Trapping

    In today's Anchorage Daily News there was an article on some of the predator control measures the state of Alaska is looking at. It seemed that the article was saying that some of this is ready for launch and that we're just dotting the i's and crossing t's at this point.

    One thing that stood out to me was the idea of trapping bears as a measure of predator control. I would assume this also means that the hides could be sold as a fur, but the article didn't say.

    I'm interested in a good discussion of this issue, because I don't fully understand the details. Here's a question I have:

    Do we really need to do this?

    This is not an easy question, because it goes to the motives behind the measure. For example, should we be doing "predator" control at all? I like what Mark said a while back; how come we call bear hunting "predator control", and moose hunting "moose hunting"? See the difference? It's as if in some way we're still living in the days when predators were considered vermin.

    Semantics, perhaps, but sometimes our choce of words expresses our motives. Have there ever been areas where we needed to do "caribou control" or "moose control"? Why just "predator control"?

    So what I'm asking here is actually several questions in one. Is it appropriate for us to try to manipulate predator numbers to grow more ungulates, or should we just let nature take it's course, knowing that nature rarely strikes a balance within itself. Knowing that years ago much of Alaska had little or no game. Including, in many cases, predators. Thirty years ago (not very long) there were places nearly devoid of bears, and now to hear the reports, the places are crawling with 'em. Should we mess with this at all?

    Another aspect is the question of whether this METHOD is a good idea. If we're going to do control measures, is trapping the way we want to go? Do we really want to bring back bear traps? Personally, I don't. I'm a hunter, but I cannot condone something that causes that kind of pain and suffering to an animal. I know that makes me somewhat inconsistent because I don't really think too much about other kinds of trapping, but there it is. This is another little nuance that perhaps should be considered. If the trappers in our midst are against trapping bears on grounds of pain and suffering, are you consistent in how you trap other animals? If not, is there a good reason that I'm not seeing?

    I have other questions, but this is enough for now. What are your thoughts about this?

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
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    Let Mother Nature run her course. If they are not willing to let Mother Nature run her course then raise the bag limit and lower the non-resident tag fee on Wolves and Bears in some of the so called problem areas for hunters. Hunters are the major sponsors of game management through the Federal Excise Tax paid on firearms, ammo and such and such. We should be the major beneficiaries of any sort of predator control.

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    Default mike

    Mike I am sorry to hear that you find trapping bears cruel. I am not quite sure what to make of that. How is the trapping of a bear any different from trapping a marten, fox, otter, beaver, mink, rat or anything else for that matter? Do you find it cruel due to the fact that it is a majestic animal? I personally find all animals that I trap amazing animals.

    I can tell you that nobody can really afford to use those gigantic bear traps, but they will be using snares instead. I believe the preferred method of snaring the bears is with foot snares as well.

    I believe it was lsat year they were trapping the bears with breakaway snares and radio collers so they could track them down, tranquilize them and relocate them to another area for moose calving. They have found that most of the bears returned to the same area very quickly. If you want to do some reading on the bear snaring,trapping and relocating that has been done in the past, let me know I will pm you a link so you can read up on it.

    Allen they have already raised the bag limit up there to 5 black bears and 2 grizzly bears per person. How much higher do you want them to raise it? I don't see people shooting more than 7 bears in a year, ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishermann222

    Allen they have already raised the bag limit up there to 5 black bears and 2 grizzly bears per person. How much higher do you want them to raise it? I don't see people shooting more than 7 bears in a year, ever.

    Jon I'm talking about lowering the non-resident tag fees and raising the bag limit for non-residents. I believe that there would be far more non-residents coming to hunt black bear if they didn't have too pay such an exorbatant price for one lousy tag. Heck, maybe the State should reward each and every non-resident hunter just to shoot one black bear.

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    Mike, currently Maine allows sport trapping of bears, all of the trapping I have heard of is being conducted with snares. I am not sure if that helps your thougts on this subject or not, however some hunters don't believe in baiting or hunting with hounds, so should we ban those methods also?. Now of course I am speaking of black bears but I think the same rationale can be used for brown/grizzly. Alaska will probably get another big backlash from the anti's with this proposal and you can bet they will be showing pictures of the old leg hold traps that used to be used and not snares.

    Another proposal that the Board may want to consider (but won't because it means less money) would in the predator control areas allow non-resident guided hunters to purchase at a greatly reduced price a bear tag when purchasing either a moose or caribou tag. By the way I stick with the guided option to avoid an increase in wounded/non-recovered bears.

    Personally after hunting in Alaska a number of times I think there are a number of AK residents who should be required to hire a guide also.

    Just one man's opinion.

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    Default nonres

    Allen now that I reread your post I see that you were talking about the Non-residents. I agree that they should up the bag limit and lower the tag fee. I have also said in the past that if some of the guides and outfitters in that area would allow resident hunters to hunt the bears for dirt cheap, alot more of them would get killed that way. It would benifit them in the years to come if the moose population turns around. A win win situation.

  7. #7

    Default Bear Trapping

    Michael, to my knowlegde Maine is the only state that allows bear trapping. While I know several people that have trapped bears, it is not an as effective method of getting a bear as baiting or hunting bears with dogs. As said earlier, no body uses the big (old) #6 bear traps anymore. Instead they use foot/leg hold snares that tighten (to a set point and no tighter) with a one way slide so the bear can not loosen it. An interesting point, here in Maine you can set two (2) traps BUT can only take one (1) bear... which has lead to some very amusing stories about trappers catching a bear in each trap (at the same time) and how they had to let the other bear go! I have a friend that has the scars to prove it! As far a pain and suffering on the part of the trapped bear... I do not see any difference between bear trapping and any other trapping IF (as in Maine) the are visited at least once a day. Much, if not all, of the misunderstanding about trapping is a direct result of the lies spread the the "anti's", such as the Humaine Society of the US. As for trapping being an effective way to control bears... I don't think enough people will do it to make a difference. But I suppose every little bit helps.

  8. #8

    Default trapping bears

    I would like to see the state actively manage the wildlife. Some major policy decisions should be made and perhaps already have been made.

    I believe that maximum sustained yield is the general policy for wildlife and should continue to be. That means that while predators are a part of the sustained yield, they should be managed to keep their numbers healthy while still maintaining healthy populations of moose and caribou.

    A certain level of predation is obviously acceptable but it would seem to me that 75% predation of moose calves is unnacceptable. I think most of those calves are killed by bears so they need to be managed. If that means trapping them...so be it.

    At which point does killing an animal become cruel and inhumane and at which point is it an acceptable practice? And is it more acceptable to be more cruel to some animals...say a non-mammal like a fish?

    Once you accept the premise that we have a right to take the life of other animals, (and I do), judgeing the method and means of taking that life based on "humaneness" becomes rather difficult.

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Your post clearly shows, Mr. Strahan, why, as consumptive wildlife users, we will never win the battle with the people who are opposed to what we do. We are just not able to stand together.
    Your statement, " I'm a hunter, but I cannot condone something that causes that kind of pain and suffering to an animal." shows clearly that you have seperated yourself from trappers. As you said, your a hunter. With that statement, you show that you do not want to align yourself with "trappers"
    This is a really confusing (Yes Dave, here we go again) stance on your part. You regularly stand with Mark Richards(bushrat) on this forum. Mark is a trapper. Much of his families support comes from trapping. If you cannot "condone" bear trapping due to "pain and suffering" how do you condone what Mark, and many others in this state, do?
    Mike, on the Kotz thread you advocate understanding and accepting other cultures and other ways. Does this apply to you as well. This post makes it look like it doesn't.
    You regularly advocate on this forum, Mike, to do good research before venturing out. Wouldn't some research on your part, as to modern trapping methods, been appropriate before venturing out with such a condemning, and totally untrue, statement.
    This forum is rife with divisiveness. Ethics, meat salvage, ATV's, predator control..........on and on. When you lock your guns away for the last time, when I put away my traps for good, when bushrat moves to town, unable to support himself in the wilderness, it won't be for any of the reasons above, it will be because we, as consumptive users of wildlife, failed to stand united.
    I believe it was Ben Franklin who said, over 200 years ago, "We must all hang together, for surely we will hang seperately".
    Mike Quinn (since it's supposedly important to sign your name)
    The rest of the info on me is in my profile.
    Last edited by martentrapper; 05-13-2006 at 20:01.

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    Talking

    Does this mean I'm going to have to put the .22 pistol away for walking my trapline and bring out the 454 casull instead?

  11. #11

    Red face predator control

    I am not an alaskan resident but it seams to me that alaska is missing out on a big opportunity to not only make more money on nonresident grizzly/brown bear tags but also gain a valuable method of lowering bear populations. Currently nonresidents can not hunt grizz without hiring a $10,000.00 guide. Hundreds maybe even thousands of nonresident hunters come to alaska every year to hunt caribou, moose, black bear... Many of these hunters would gladly fork out the extra doe to purchase a grizzly tag just in case they saw a grizz/brown on their 'bou hunt. I know that a lot of guides will hate this idea but it makes sense that it would lower the bear population and bring in much needed revinue for the fish and game department. Some might say that nonresidents will only wound the bears and fail to retrieve it but the fish and game could always sell the tags in pairs to insure that there will be a backup gun in case things go bad. If a resident alaskan can hunt a grizz without a guide why not a nonresident? Does living in alaska make you a better shot? Does the fact that Joe Blow lives in Texas or wyoming make him a worse shot? Just an idea and I am sure that there are some who will hate it but there it is.

  12. #12
    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Default Mother nature

    This last winter I took my family to visit the inlaws in San Diego CA. We went to a swap-meet, and low and behold they,,, meaning (Friends of Animals, PETA, and a couple other anti trapping non profits) had a booth set up for people to sign petitions to stop all Trapping in several western States, and one petition to ban trapping in all of the USA.,, They had posters of Decaying Coyotes left in leg hold traps, a Bobcat being beat to death with a shovel as it's leg was held in a trap, An Eagle caught in a leg hold trap.., and a #4 trap with a foot of a young Mountain lion still in it, showing that the animal had chewed the leg off after the bone was broke and left his foot and bone in the trap.. etc.. I suppose that petition will be used as a tool to show the politicians that thousands of people that visit swap meets in California know what is best. It does not require that you know or understand anything about trapping, or animal control, or subsistance.. all you have to do is just sign a petition..... and Guess what all of us Hunters, trappers and fisherman can be put out of business by shear Numbers of uninformed petition signers from Swap-meets accross the country.
    The reason I tell the above story is to also help us understand that Hunting, trapping and fishing should not be legislated, or ever end up on a ballot to be voted on by the population.
    We would be out of business in just a few days if this was how game management was operated. There are more people visiting California Swap-meets each week than the entire population of Our state of Alaska...
    So what do we tell our game management teams here is ALaska?
    We tell them that they need to be good farmers and ranchers of our crops and herds..
    I read an above post that suggested mother nature be left to deal with these issues... Now,, If mother nature were left to deal with my uncles crop of corn in Idaho.. or my cousins beef ranch in Wyoming... then they would both be out of business the first season...Mother Nature does not nor never has managed herds or farms very good at all. We HUMANS are the biggest part of this equation...
    We have hired for our state good Wildlife Biologists, We try to get the best people on our Big Game boards that will look after our Herds, and maintain decent numbers of animals so we can harvest them. I also believe that the state Biologists would not even entertain Trapping bears unless they realized they need a more effective method of controlling numbers.
    On the Kenai Peninsula, I was told by our local fish and game bear Biologist that we are covered up in Black bears in certain areas of the peninsula, More than One per sqaure mile in Swanson river,, and Moose Mortality is being heavily impacted due to low numbers of Calves surviving the first months or even days of life.. Why ??? Bears.... and Wolves
    OK, so do we want to hunt and eat bears, or hunt and eat Moose?
    The market says they want more Moose and less bears...
    I like the way our ranchers are thinking...
    Max

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskacanoe
    I read an above post that suggested mother nature be left to deal with these issues... Now,, If mother nature were left to deal with my uncles crop of corn in Idaho.. or my cousins beef ranch in Wyoming... then they would both be out of business the first season...Mother Nature does not nor never has managed herds or farms very good at all. Max

    Do your Uncles and Cousins expect State Government to protect their herds or crops from Fire, Tornados, Freezing weather or even flooding. That is Mother Nature at work. Can't remember the name of the island in Michigan off the top of my head, but the wolf and moose population is left to Mother Nature to deal with. When Moose population is high, so is Wolf population. It works in reverse also. These 2 species seem to be doing very well at keeping the populations of each in check with the needs of the habitat.

  14. #14
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper
    Your post clearly shows, Mr. Strahan, why, as consumptive wildlife users, we will never win the battle with the people who are opposed to what we do. We are just not able to stand together.
    Your statement, " I'm a hunter, but I cannot condone something that causes that kind of pain and suffering to an animal." shows clearly that you have seperated yourself from trappers. As you said, your a hunter. With that statement, you show that you do not want to align yourself with "trappers"
    This is a really confusing (Yes Dave, here we go again) stance on your part. You regularly stand with Mark Richards(bushrat) on this forum. Mark is a trapper. Much of his families support comes from trapping. If you cannot "condone" bear trapping due to "pain and suffering" how do you condone what Mark, and many others in this state, do?
    Mike, on the Kotz thread you advocate understanding and accepting other cultures and other ways. Does this apply to you as well. This post makes it look like it doesn't.
    You regularly advocate on this forum, Mike, to do good research before venturing out. Wouldn't some research on your part, as to modern trapping methods, been appropriate before venturing out with such a condemning, and totally untrue, statement.
    This forum is rife with divisiveness. Ethics, meat salvage, ATV's, predator control..........on and on. When you lock your guns away for the last time, when I put away my traps for good, when bushrat moves to town, unable to support himself in the wilderness, it won't be for any of the reasons above, it will be because we, as consumptive users of wildlife, failed to stand united.
    I believe it was Ben Franklin who said, over 200 years ago, "We must all hang together, for surely we will hang seperately".
    Mike Quinn (since it's supposedly important to sign your name)
    The rest of the info on me is in my profile.
    MT,

    I'm not a trapper, and don't know much about it. This is an area completely outside my expertise. But I want to understand it better. When I read about trapping bears, the first thing that came to my mind was those huge leg-hold traps. I wouldn't favor using something like that, because I believe it causes a lot of suffering for the animal. If it doesn’t, I’m open to learning how it works. If those are not the traps we’re talking about, I’d like to know more about what kind of traps we are talking about, and whether those traps cause needless suffering to a bear. When I’m hunting, I take a lot of trouble to make sure the animal dies a quick, merciful death. Yes, the animal dies. But my opinion is that if I’m going to take an animal’s life (something I am powerless to create; I can only take life), I should do it humanely. It is out of this personal ethic that I derive my limited understanding of what may happen if we trap bears. I'm not drawing any lines in the sand at all, and am certainly not looking down on anyone. I want to learn here. That's the whole point of the discussion.

    This thread is an excellent opportunity for folks such as yourself to educate folks like me on exactly how this would work in the real world. Regardless of your conclusions, I do have a tremendous respect for other cultures, including many of the sub-cultures within the hunting community (including trapping). I’m not an “anti-trapper”; I'm just a guy who doesn’t know much about it yet. As an uneducated person in this area, it is inevitable that I will make erroneous statements and mistaken conclusions until I have a better understanding of the situation. Rather than getting upset, see this as your opportunity to teach me something new! Who better than trappers to inform me on how it’s done and whether it would work or is appropriate for bears?

    My comments on fake names don’t apply to you; I know who you are (and where you live)! They’re aimed at folks who shoot folks from the shadows out of maliciousness.

    I think we CAN have a civil discussion about this! Can we?

    A special thanks to all you trappers out there who have contributed to this discussion so far. I'm learning... please keep it up!

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
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    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
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    Default Isle Royal

    That is the name of the island. You can not really compare the two situations. That is a completely closed environment. The wolves are the only predators. Here the moose have human predators, wolves, brown bears and grizzly bears.

  16. #16
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    Default Hired Range managers

    Our Fish and Game work for those that fish,hunt, trap and anyone else that buys a license or donates money to the division. It is a Governmental agency that is only in existance due to the above mentioned payments. So Yes they are indeed our hired range managers. Just stop all hunting fishing and trapping and they go away just like my uncles hired hands, and then himself if he left Mother nature to be the manager...
    Remember that Alaska had a real Alaska Indigenous herd of Musk Ox From God knows when to the late 1800's or some accounts say about 1915.... and due to the Use of the Modern day smoke pole. The last Alaskan Musk Ox disapeared completely...Due to lack of a Management system..
    We shipped over some Musk Ox from some better range managers from greenland and started a few satelite herds,, now we enjoy decent herds, managed, hunted, and used. Then recently someone decided that at least 5 of these animals would be great sport to shoot.. They were caught and will hopefully have a very just day in our Court system.. (Also not managed by mother Nature)....
    Here is a question.. What if a Parasite is introduced into the mentioned Island from a bird, human domestic Dog say like (Parvo) or arrives on the wind. And the Animals either Moose or Wolves takes a population beating?
    Do we have anouther Hagermeister Island situation where the moose ( Reindeer in that case) breed and eat themselves to exinction? or do we bring in a range manager to control the situation?
    I think we all know that answer...
    We are the equation, No way out of it.. Without Human Management other species would indeed not exist.
    But Alas... its a wonderful dream to think.....
    The Dictionary Wikipedia says..... well you can read it..
    "In biology and ecology, extinction is the ceasing of existence of a species or group of taxa. The moment of extinction is generally considered to be the death of the last individual of that species. Extinction is usually a natural phenomenon, at least before modern man. it is estimated that more than 99.9% of all species that have ever lived are now extinct. [1] Through evolution, new species are created by speciation ó where new organisms arise and thrive when they are able to find and exploit an ecological niche ó and species become extinct when are no longer able to survive in changing conditions or against superior competition. A typical species becomes extinct within 10 million years of its first appearance, although some species survive virtually unchanged for hundreds of millions of years. Modern Man has proved to have a hand in at least speeding up or slowing down the extinction of some species."
    Of course this is only about a million Scientists talking.
    Max

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by turner1978
    I am not an alaskan resident but it seams to me that alaska is missing out on a big opportunity to not only make more money on nonresident grizzly/brown bear tags but also gain a valuable method of lowering bear populations. Currently nonresidents can not hunt grizz without hiring a $10,000.00 guide. Hundreds maybe even thousands of nonresident hunters come to alaska every year to hunt caribou, moose, black bear... Many of these hunters would gladly fork out the extra doe to purchase a grizzly tag just in case they saw a grizz/brown on their 'bou hunt. I know that a lot of guides will hate this idea but it makes sense that it would lower the bear population and bring in much needed revinue for the fish and game department. Some might say that nonresidents will only wound the bears and fail to retrieve it but the fish and game could always sell the tags in pairs to insure that there will be a backup gun in case things go bad. If a resident alaskan can hunt a grizz without a guide why not a nonresident? Does living in alaska make you a better shot? Does the fact that Joe Blow lives in Texas or wyoming make him a worse shot? Just an idea and I am sure that there are some who will hate it but there it is.
    Check out willowair.com. I'm not sure what type of additional fees or whatever there might be, but this guided operation is offering $4995 guided brown bear hunts.

    http://www.willowair.com/hunts/docs/brownbear.htm

    A quote from that page:

    "AFFORDABLE" BROWN BEAR HUNTS
    I am hearing from a lot of hunters that they would love to go on a brown bear hunt but they just canít afford to spend 10-15 thousand dollars. In Alaska a non resident must have a guide to hunt brown bear. Our brown bear population is at an all time high and I am trying to find a way for non residents to have an affordable brown bear hunt. This is what I have come up with. The hunt will be either spring or fall and will be 1 guide for each 2 hunters. This would be ideal for a father/son or two guys that hunt together all the time. You will have to be fit and able to hunt and not expect to be catered to all the time. We will supply the guide, all the flying, the camp, and you will bring your own food and do your own cooking. Cost will be $4995.00 per per-son. What do you think? If you might be interested let me know."

  18. #18
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Default

    Civil discussions will much more likely occur if folks leave out ignorant, and prejudicial statements such as, " causes that kind of pain and suffering to an animal ". If pain and suffering is a problem for you, Mr. Strahan, I submit you should not be participating in consumptive wildlife activities at all.
    There is not room here to educate you, or the other readers, on the "humaneness" of traps. If you can accept that traps can be used "humanely" (whatever that means) on other species, then it should be acceptable, at least from a humane standpoint, on bears.
    The question "Do we need bear trapping" is inappropriate. It takes the issue from the regional level, and transfers it to a larger scale. The proper question would be, do the people in these regions need bear trapping? Only those people in the region, and those familiar with those regions, can best answer that question.
    For real data on how successful bear trapping can be, I advise folks to speak with Pat Valkenburg, retired from ADF&G (he's one of those "scientists" the backcountry hunters want to have make decisions), or call the Yukon Flats Wildlife Refuge office in Fbks and ask about their bear study in which they used traps to learn bear numbers.

  19. #19

    Default bear hunt

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt
    Check out willowair.com. I'm not sure what type of additional fees or whatever there might be, but this guided operation is offering $4995 guided brown bear hunts.

    http://www.willowair.com/hunts/docs/brownbear.htm

    A quote from that page:

    "AFFORDABLE" BROWN BEAR HUNTS
    I am hearing from a lot of hunters that they would love to go on a brown bear hunt but they just canít afford to spend 10-15 thousand dollars. In Alaska a non resident must have a guide to hunt brown bear. Our brown bear population is at an all time high and I am trying to find a way for non residents to have an affordable brown bear hunt. This is what I have come up with. The hunt will be either spring or fall and will be 1 guide for each 2 hunters. This would be ideal for a father/son or two guys that hunt together all the time. You will have to be fit and able to hunt and not expect to be catered to all the time. We will supply the guide, all the flying, the camp, and you will bring your own food and do your own cooking. Cost will be $4995.00 per per-son. What do you think? If you might be interested let me know."
    Are you a guide or do you know these people? How well do they run their services? I have always been told to be warry of too cheap of prices and I am new to out of state hunting. This does sound like a good opportunity for an average guy on an average income to come to alaska and go on a dream hunt for brown/grizz. Thanks alot.

  20. #20
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    Default Discussion gone awry

    How about we start a new thread to really discuss the costs/benefits to pred-control proposals? Maybe actually quoting from the proposals is in order. The bear trapping is a very small aspect of the proposals, and probably the most controversial of the methods proposed. We need to take emotion out of the discussion, stick with biological facts and perceived "needs" stated in proposals, as well as the goals. Like every proposal states at the end, "Who is likely to benefit?" "Who is likely to suffer?" We can draw this out farther to encompass not just "who" but what (such as habitat damage, wildlife populations etc.)

    According to Article 8, section 3 of our state constitution, the fish and wildlife of our state are "reserved to the people for common use." In the next section, it says that our fish and wildlife shall be utilized "subject to preferences among beneficial users." Wildlife viewers, hikers, birders, and other non-consumptive users are also "beneficial users." Hunters don't own the wildlife any more than non-consumptive wildlife viewers, and ADFG does not manage wildlife just for hunters, though many would like them to do so. The Division of Wildlife Conservation is named thus because they are there to conserve ALL wildlife for the common good. From songbirds to moose.

    Also, our constitution states that we will manage on the "sustained yield" principle, NOT "maximum sustained yield." Two very different management approaches.

    "Subsistence" comes into play in all this as well. Is there really "subsistence" going on? Many say there is no such thing. If so, then how do you argue the "need" for pred-control that in almost every proposal says it is being done to meet "subsistence" needs of residents?

    As to pain and suffering, and it being a "problem," we can look to the proposals and find that it is at least a CONSIDERATION. Here's one example: "The commissioner shall reduce the wolf population in an efficient manner, but as safely and humanely as possible." One could argue before the Board that this caveat may preclude the use of foot-snares to take bears. One could argue this caveat shouldn't even be in the proposals.

    In any case, would be nice if we could start a new thread and discuss the facts and repercussions of the proposals now under consideration. There is no doubt bear trapping is an effective means of killing bears, just as bear baiting is. Okay then, so what are the costs/benefits of doing this? Who is likely to benefit and who and/or what is likely to suffer?

    Best to all, and Happy Mother's Day to all the women out there. Call your mother <grin>.

    Mark

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