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Thread: 410 shot shells in a 45/70 ?

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    Member Ak Fireman's Avatar
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    Default 410 shot shells in a 45/70 ?

    I was looking for a "snake shot" type cartridge for my guide gun and came across an article of a guy claiming he uses 2.5" .410 shot shells from his 45/70 without problems.
    Has anyone heard of this before.
    I was thinking this could come in handy for grouse.

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    It has become an accepted practice in "survival situations" and it will work. You'll need to be almost close enough to smack 'em on the head with the gun for it to be effective but it will beat going hungry.

    The 410 is smaller than the 45-70 at the base and it does bulge but the shot shell is pretty low pressure anyway so I don't expect catastrophic results from it. There is a possibility of the 410 shell rupturing and that could send gas back at'cha. I don't know of that happening, here again dealing with a small volume of H110 powder loaded to about 15,000 psi.

    My limited experience with this indicates that the 1/2 ounce of shot from the rifled barrel is not any better than the handgun shot shells in the likes of 44 mag and 45 Colt. The old snake charmer single shot 410 is a better deal for ptarmigan/grouse and is a small backpack size gun.

    It is an interesting concept though.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Member .338-06's Avatar
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    I started messing around with loading shot in .45-70 shells. Didn't get very far before other things got in the way , but I did get better than pistol shotshell results. I was using a .44 shotshell capsul to allow more shot in the .45-70 case. Wasn't very happy with it, but I saw that Midway carries .45 shotshell capsuls. I was thinking that I should try that again.

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    I've never used Shotshell in my rifles. Somewhere at sometime I was told it could damage the rifling.
    I have no idea if that is true or if there is another reason or if it doesnt do any damage at all.

    Anyone know for sure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYBSP View Post
    I've never used Shotshell in my rifles. Somewhere at sometime I was told it could damage the rifling.
    I have no idea if that is true or if there is another reason or if it doesnt do any damage at all.

    Anyone know for sure?
    Think about that old tough lead going down that soft steel tube?!!

    No that ain't the case.

    I didn't mention this but it is easy to make shot shells on the 45-70 case. You can make standard 28 guage loads by putting a fiber wad (two) over the powder charge then 3/4 ounce of shot then another wad and roll crimp it in place. I've chronographed these 325 grain shot columns at 1200 fps and no they don't pattern very well in a rifled barrel but they certainly don't hurt the gun and they are a bunch more effective than a 410 gauge shell in the 45-70 chamber. You must single feed these but that is a small price to pay when you need a makeshift shotgun.

    I also make brass shot shells for the 44 mag by necking down the 445 super mag brass and using wads and shots and a wad and roll crimp on top. These can be carried in the same cylinder with the heavy bear bullets and when the heavys are shot it doesnt bust the capsule as it does with the plastic Speer shot cups.

    Another good idea that comes from Townsend Whelen is to load a low velocity cast bullet for the hunting rifle that strikes same point of aim as the hunting load, at fifty yards, and use that for grouse, turkey, rabbits, javelina, armadillo (takes just like pig). This load would typically be a 165 grain cast, gas checked, bullet at 1400-1600 fps for the 30-06 and the 180 grain jacketed spitzer at 2800 fps, for the hunting load. This is a much more reliable and longer range "pot load" and can be done for any caliber.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Member .338-06's Avatar
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    Murphy, what would you think of getting some 45-90 or 45 Basic brass and doing the same thing that you did with the 445 brass? What would you use to neck down the 45-90/Basic?
    The only thing I've ever necked down is .35 Whelan to .338-06. Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .338-06 View Post
    Murphy, what would you think of getting some 45-90 or 45 Basic brass and doing the same thing that you did with the 445 brass? What would you use to neck down the 45-90/Basic?
    The only thing I've ever necked down is .35 Whelan to .338-06. Thanks in advance.

    I lost this thread....WoW! Anyway. I got some mail on my comments here and I want to clear that up and answer your questions.

    You don't need to use a longer case than the 45-70 to make a pretty good load (3/4 oz). It takes very little powder Use 28 gauge data with just card board wads and adjust up and down to get the velocity and pattern. I have some wad cutter tools that are available from Buffalo Arms to cut fiber wads for 44,45, 50 caliber as well as the gauge sizes for 410, 36, 28, 20, 16, 12, and 10 gauge. These are used with brass shells for over powder wads and over shot wads for shotgun and revolver and rifle. Typically the straight cases 45-70 up to 3 1/4" , I've used them for 40-70 Sharps straight and others also. We just use these to cut fiber board or the back of note book or Big Chief tablet will make good enough wads. Or you can buy fiber board wad that is made for this. If you use plain cardboard note pad back you'll have to double the top and bottom. Then use a heavy roll crimp on the case mouth over a tight fitting wad.

    The purpose of using the 445 super mag brass in the 44 mag for shot is two fold. One, the case will hold the shot when it is in the cylinder with bear loads (300 grain hard cast). The plastic ones break from recoil and with the powder-wad-shot-wad loading it holds more shot. In a ten inch contender barrel they work very well but not so good in short revolvers. In the 6 1/2" or longer they seem to do OK. I mean even a 410 shot gun is better but they are meant for a last ditch effort. The 45-70 powder-wad-shot-wad loading works very well and in a 20" rifled barrel they are good for about 15 yards or so for fool hens.
    Last edited by Murphy; 03-24-2008 at 06:49.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  8. #8

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    I have played around with this a bit. I stuck a felt wad over the powder then inserted a standard .410 wad. I forget how much shot I used but it was just 410 data out of the book. The felt wad was to keep the powder behind the 410 wad. I capped the whole thing off with a gascheck crimped in at the top. The rifling seems to make a horrible donut pattern at typical grouse ranges. Only plus I could see is the wad and the gas check hit at roughly point of aim. I bet that gas check could decapitate something with feathers. The 28 gauge idea sounds very interesting. The dual wad setup is pretty inefficient as far as space inside the case goes. Still have yet to take anything with one of these. It's on the to do list along with a grouse assassination using a little 45/410 derringer a friend bought me.

    I cut my own wads using a sacrificial piece of brass that has been sharpened with a chamfering tool. Works pretty good.

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