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Thread: Grassroots Predator Control

  1. #1
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Default Grassroots Predator Control

    Here's a link to an ADN story on SFW and their plan to help hunters kill bears in 16B.
    http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/341308.html

    Isn't this the kind of local, grassroots, private money that some folks say us hunters should do to help lower pred numbers?
    But of course, here is a quote from our own Homerdave (the man who never met a pred control program he liked) and his BHA group:
    ""We don't believe that just so hunters can go kill more moose is a good reason to go kill a bunch of bears."
    All over this state people are wanting to lower preds and increase ungulates. SFW is a local group with a plan. Sounds good to me. Increasing moose is an excellent reason to kill more bears. Thanks Dave. Thanks for the usual "ethical" finger pointing your group seems to think will get it more members and money.
    There is one problem with their plan tho...........and I'm sorely disappointed Dave didn't pick up on it.............how is this group gonna run hunters thru bait stands without running afoul of the guide regs?
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
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  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    There is one problem with their plan tho...........and I'm sorely disappointed Dave didn't pick up on it.............how is this group gonna run hunters thru bait stands without running afoul of the guide regs?
    don't think they did miss picking up on it.

    from the DNews........."look into other legal issues surrounding the plan to fly in large numbers of "hunters" to these bait stations. Sincerely,
    Mark Richards
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters.org"





    March 11, 2008 - 10:25am | beaverbend AK Backcountry Hunters position
    This is Mark Richards writing, co-chair of Alaska Backcountry Hunters and Anglers.
    We strongly opposed the bear control plan in Unit 16B to allow the killing of sows with cubs, and cubs. We still oppose it.
    We are frankly, as hunters, ashamed at what is now going on and the negative light it shines on the hunting fraternity. This is certainly not what we believe hunting is all about. We view the group promoting this idea as "extremists" within the hunting community. I ask everyone to not judge all hunters based on what they say and what they promote.
    I encourage everyone to not blame ADF&G for this either. ADF&G has some of the best staff and they work within the limitations our state allows. The Board of Game sets the regs and implements predator control plans.
    There are times when predator management, including "control" efforts, are warranted. Our org would certainly like to see more moose in Unit 16B, but several other factors here may prevent us ever sustainably reaching the intensive management objectives for this unit.
    We will have some information on all this on our website soon, after we get the most recent biological data from ADF&G staff and look into other legal issues surrounding the plan to fly in large numbers of "hunters" to these bait stations.
    Sincerely,
    Mark Richards
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters.org


  3. #3
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    .....how is this group gonna run hunters thru bait stands without running afoul of the guide regs?
    By not accepting payment.

  4. #4
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    Default This is what I said on another thread:

    "The SFW effort involves rotating several hundred people in six-day shifts into about a dozen camps, timed to coincide with the legal baiting season in the area, from April 15 to June 30, Rossi said. The group will assist hunters with bait, food and transportation costs where possible," (Anchorage Daily News)


    Questions I have:

    1. Where did these several hundred people come from?

    2. How did they sign up? How did they organize?

    3. How do they pay for air-transportation? Which member is in line first?
    4. How did they pull off no meat salvage requirements? These are black bears, right?

    5. In other words, can a fortified group really bring about change in wildlife management?

    And the most important of all,,,,,, What people are eligible for a moose tag after SFW "clean's up"?

  5. #5
    Member wolfkiller's Avatar
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    Default Must importantly

    How do I get on the list.
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    www.arcticconcealment.com

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    New member AKDSLDOG's Avatar
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    One thing I do know is this unit is COVERED with Black Bears. I would gladly join in this hunt as well as many of you should!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    By not accepting payment.
    I thought that you had to register and bait your own station too?


  8. #8

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    Does anyone think this may not be a good idea, simply for the flak the hunting community is receiving? It is a hard enough task explaining to people why we hunt bears, and predators, when many of us don't eat them. Now, add the impression of a slaughter to the mix, can we expect nothing less than an over-reaching political backlash?

  9. #9
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    Originally Posted by Mark
    By not accepting payment.
    I thought that you had to register and bait your own station too?
    Page 27:

    ……If you choose not to use this sign, you must place some other sign that clearly identifies the site as a “Black Bear Bait Station”, and displays the bear baiting permit number assigned by ADF&G, your hunting license number and the hunting license numbers of others who hunt over that bait station…….

    ….You MAY NOT register a bait station in Units 6D, 7, 14A, 14B, 15, 16A, or 20B unless you have successfully completed an ADF&G approved bear baiting clinic…..

    ……You may place bait at only two bait stations at the same time. Only the person who registers the site may transport bait to or otherwise maintain the site…...

    .......You MAY NOT take money, bartered goods, or services from someone who uses your bait station. This does not apply to licensed guides who personally accompany clients at the bait station site.......

  10. #10
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by adfraiser View Post
    Does anyone think this may not be a good idea, simply for the flak the hunting community is receiving? It is a hard enough task explaining to people why we hunt bears, and predators, when many of us don't eat them. Now, add the impression of a slaughter to the mix, can we expect nothing less than an over-reaching political backlash?
    You're going to catch that flak anyway. Nothing you do short of stopping all hunting will suffice to these people.

  11. #11
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    I agree with Mark the only option is to not hide and start playing the political game. I think SFW has made some great strides in that arena! Look at the Homosexual community, they were ostracized until they took a stand. Sure they can't get married but try turning on the TV and flipping three channels without hitting a gay oriented show. I have little doubt that the marriage thing is but an election away. The point is as a minority the only way to protect your rights is to stand up and fight for them.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    You're going to catch that flak anyway. Nothing you do short of stopping all hunting will suffice to these people.
    I don't buy that. It's not the 10% that are firmly opposed to hunting that will determine the fate of our pursuit, it's the 70-80% of the public that can be swayed either way. Most of the general public is OK with most hunting, but killing hundreds of bears and not harvesting the meat is the kind of thing that will give them a bad perception of hunting. Public perception matters.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    I don't buy that. It's not the 10% that are firmly opposed to hunting that will determine the fate of our pursuit, it's the 70-80% of the public that can be swayed either way. Most of the general public is OK with most hunting, but killing hundreds of bears and not harvesting the meat is the kind of thing that will give them a bad perception of hunting. Public perception matters.
    That is my point. We can never satisfy those that are gunning for complete over protection of all species. I get that. But, there is a big chunk of people in the center, who really have the swing vote, so to speak. Most of them have either a misunderstanding or content ignorance of trophy hunting, but have no reason to take a stand on the issue. If we decide to openly defy their misconception, they will take a stand, many without truly examining the issue. Is that what we really want?

    Don't forget, in the 2004 General election, 130,648 (43%) of our fellow citizens voted to make all bear baiting illegal. I highly doubt they are all antis. In fact, I am guessing some hunters voted for this measure. Many hunters believe bear baiting to be an ethical practice. Those hunters and biologists believe the misconception of bear baiting by the public is the cause of this number. If that is the case, how does an organized bear hunt, which will be portrayed as a canned slaughter by the anti-hunters, truly help the cause? If anything, we have just given the antis the best ammo they could hope for. Look at the comments on the article at adn's website.

    The fact of the matter is hunting is not as popular of sport as it once was, and hunting without harvesting the meat is generally frowned upon, even by members of this forum. When that is the case, how can we justify organizing a massive bear baiting event, when it will only hurt us in the future. If anything, I see this as the opening shot, in what will be another initiative against bear baiting and aerial predator hunting, followed with an attack on trophy hunting in general.

    I agree that we can not sit back and allow our rights to erode. However, we should pick and choose our battles, in an attempt to win the war, and not instigate an already insatiable enemy.

  14. #14
    Member ak_powder_monkey's Avatar
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    this might actually help moose... WAY WAY more than wolf control (how many calves do 125 wolves eat? compare that to a few thousand blackies)

    I would actually like to see the harvest goals met, it will be interesting to see the results from this experiment. There are a ton of bears in that area. Its just too bad the state couldn't keep this more low key. I don't think there has been much research in the area of bear moose relations and this could make managment a bit better...

    If there was a good market for bear fur I'd go and shoot a few myself to fund fishing.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

  15. #15
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adfraiser View Post

    Don't forget, in the 2004 General election, 130,648 (43%) of our fellow citizens voted to make all bear baiting illegal.
    WRONG. You've fallen into the same BS that others tout. Only 43% of those who bothered to vote voted as you said. I'm skeptical on your 130, 648 figure also. Your figures DO NOT include those "fellow citizens" who don't register to vote, and also DO NOT include those fellow citizens who registered, but did not vote in that election. Truth is, most of our "fellow citizens" either voted for bear baiting, or don't care enough about the issue to bother to participate in the election.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  16. #16
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    I think its a great idea. I just hope they can team with someone like Hunters for the Hungry or local food banks and salvage the meat. Meat is 100% of the reason I hunt black bears; (well, its fun, too) fishing is fun, and I'd do that if bears didn't taste good, but they taste good enough to give up some fishing time to go harvest them. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    WRONG. You've fallen into the same BS that others tout. Only 43% of those who bothered to vote voted as you said. I'm skeptical on your 130, 648 figure also. Your figures DO NOT include those "fellow citizens" who don't register to vote, and also DO NOT include those fellow citizens who registered, but did not vote in that election. Truth is, most of our "fellow citizens" either voted for bear baiting, or don't care enough about the issue to bother to participate in the election.
    I am not going to banter statistics. You are right that figure is based on the votes cast in a Presidential election that drew many voters. But the only votes that matter, are votes that are cast. If you want to count the votes of those that didn't bother to show up, or register for that matter, I guess you can claim victory in any election.

    The point of my post was by doing something that has the potential to fan the flames of controversy, and flaunt it in the faces of the voracious antis, you can potentially push the 8% out of the 14% voting citizens (I hope that is accurate enough of term) who voted against the ballet measure, the other way.

    Please make no mistake, I am not against bear baiting. And am definitely in favor of trophy hunting and predator control. I just think the problems that can arise from this particular action are not worth the benefits.

  18. #18
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food View Post
    I just hope they can team with someone like Hunters for the Hungry or local food banks and salvage the meat.
    That would be a wise move on their part, and beneficial to those who could use the meat.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    That would be a wise move on their part, and beneficial to those who could use the meat.
    Agreed. That would be both a politically and socially beneficial move.

  20. #20
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Originally Posted by Mark
    You're going to catch that flak anyway. Nothing you do short of stopping all hunting will suffice to these people.
    I don't buy that. It's not the 10% that are firmly opposed to hunting that will determine the fate of our pursuit, it's the 70-80% of the public that can be swayed either way.....
    Actually, you're correct. We see it on this very forum among hunters. The situation is more like this:

    "If you don't hunt the way I (or we) say you should hunt, than you're an unethical person."

    ....killing hundreds of bears and not harvesting the meat is the kind of thing that will give them a bad perception of hunting.....
    That isn't the issue in GMU 16. See Page 26:

    ....From Jan 1 May 31, in Units 1 17, 11 17, and 20 the hide, skull, and meat must be salvaged and removed from the field.....
    ....Public perception matters.
    It doesn't seem to matter when I'm part of the public.

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