Well it looks like after 6 days of not allowing the commercial fisherman to rape the reds of the Kenai, the river has now reached the escapement goal and will reopen at midnight tonight with a sport fishing limit of 3/day. Fish and Game stated that it appears that the run was just late afterall. Well go figure. Happy fishing to all.
I posted down a little bit further on this and did not get an answer, so thought I would ask it again here. Are the commercial boats going to be out on the Kenai and Kasilof on Monday? I notice they reopened the dipnetting on the Kenai, just for tomorrow as it stands right now. But will the commercial boats be there too? Seems sort quirky to reopen for dipnetting for one day but then let all of the commercial boats clog the system up so there are none for the netters to catch. So what is the deal?
The gill net industry does not "rape the reds of the Kenai," it "harvests" a portion of Alaska's fish resources to the benefit of all Alaskans just as does the sport fishery, the personal use fishery, and the Kenaitze educational fishery. Moreover, all Alaskans should appreciate that ADF&G is willing to make hard choices in order to protect the sustainability of the fisheries.
AK Troutbum - your comment-Well it looks like after 6 days of not allowing the commercial fisherman to rape the reds of the Kenai...
This type of statement is just plain not civil and is rude and insulting to those professionals trying to manage the resource for the public - even you. - I talk to and know the ADF&G staff. They did not rape anything by fishing the commercial fleet - they have done one heck of a job of trying to meet the escapment goals and it looks like they will do it. Keep the comments on track with data and insults to yourself.
Second, the comment that the run is just late is not supported by the facts. First, the total harvest of all speices to date is 1.5 million with escapements adding another million. When this season is done the total return will probably be around 3 million fish - all rivers combined. The Kenai averages 3 million on its own. The Kenai return this year will be 1-1.5 million fish. Therefore, the run was late and weak.
Within the Kenai River drainage the return of 5 year old fish (mostly mainstem spawners) was very weak. The Russian River may be driving this return and fish from other brood years (three spawning years make up the bulk of the return). So at this point both of your comments are wrong- based on data. If you have any data to refute this then please present it so we can keep the discussion data oriented and factual.
Well boys, I apologize if I offended you, it just seems like when commercial fishing for reds is open on the Kenai very, very, few fish get into the river. As far as factual support that the run is "just late", Fish and Game says this: Present escapement rates of sockeye salmon into the Kenai River, coupled with the run strength assessment of the return of this stock, now indicate the run is unusually late and that sufficient numbers of sockeye salmon will continue to enter the river to provide for the optimum spawning escapement of 500,000 - 1,000,000 fish. This came from the F&G web site. I'll be willing to bet the numbers that will be posted for the day of the 31st of July will be significantly lower than the number posted for today. 65,000+ reds came in on the 29th, we'll see how the numbers on the 31st compare.
Speak plainly. . .
Besides accusing the gill net industry of "rape," what exactly, if anything, are you insinuating about ADF&G's management of the fishery? Don't leave us to "go figure," speak plainly — "it just seems," "willing to bet," and "we'll see" amount to verbal hide-and-seek or dodge-ball. What's your point? Thanks. . .
Okay....no insinuations. I think AK TB is inferring what is a very common sentiment among a majority of sportfisherman in Alaska that commercial and gill netting operations get preferential treatment when the fish resources are in limited supply. That whenever there is a short end of the stick it is always shorter for the sportsfishing industry. I'm just repeating this for conversation's sake.....it is the perception whether accurate or not. Doing the job of Fish and Game is a thankless task as they must manage, to some degree, from political correctness and not purely from what is best for the resource.....from pure science. Fisheries management is extremely complex and I'm sure most people don't understand all of the factors involved. Maybe we can have a discussion on this subject....without anyone getting upset? Nerka....a little help here.....
Well said. . .
Well said, Doc — out in the open without any mealy-mouth, beating around the bush, divisive, black-helicopter, childish nonsense. And I agree — there is a perception among the sport-fishing community at times that they take hind-tit to the nets. There is at times an equal and opposite perception among seiners, drifters, long-liners, and set netters — that they take hind-tit to sport fishing.
In my mind, both are right, but not exclusively so — depends. In both cases, we're talking about public participation in and sharing of a publically-owned resource — fish. Whether fresh or salt water charter boats, private anglers, or commercial nets, all we're talking about is people and fish.
Fisheries managers — ADF&G in this case — must try to protect the biological integrity of the resource while contending with social issues, special-interest politics and economics, and much more, all of which have the ability to threaten the sustainability of our fisheries.
Rather than indulging in slander-mongering, nasty innuendo, finger-pointing, abuse, and other negative acitivity that serves only to separate us as Alaskans, solving nothing, anyone interested in what's "really" happening should make an earnest effort to inform and educate themselves beyond anecdotal and economic biases. Don't make accusations without proof. Don't deal in ignorant prejudice on the basis of money. Call, write, or e-mail the guys at ADF&G for facts and perspective. In any case, stop with all the divisive nastiness that only exacerbates the contention. We're neighbors — let's search for solutions in that spirit.
some discussion points.
When the fish hit the beach and ADF&G is managing for goals set by the Board of Fish there will be days when the exploitation rate is high - models by ADF&G indicated that the set nets take 70% of the sockeye available to them.
However, what is getting lost here is that in a normal season the commercial fishery takes fish before any escapement and therefore at some point ADF&G must restrict them if the run is average or below. Usually this takes the form of restricting fishing to the southern portion of the inlet by the drift fleet and adjusting the set nets depending on what stock is being protected.
The ADF&G waits then on the first rush of fish to the river and that is when PU fisherman get the first good shot. As escapements increase the fishery can be more intense but there are still lots of fish at the river mouth as ADF&G moves toward the goal. Experienced PU fisherman know how to read the escapements and fishing patterns and make a move to the river based on that information. Today, in the daily news one such fisherman talked Craig Medred into coming down with him last Friday and they had an outstanding day. People who watch the river mouth fish when the fish are present.
What the problem is that fish do not come to the river in a predictable pattern so a person in Anchorage can plan a trip. One day they are there and the next they are not. Work schedules keep people tied up during the week. Most people do not understand that ADF&G cannot control when fish will move to the beach. This year the commercial fishery was very restricted - the drift fleet did not fish in the whole inlet after 10 July yet fish did not come to the beach until late July. As I mentioned in a different post Kenai fish tagged in early July can hold in the inlet for up to two weeks before moving to the river.
Relative to politics and fisheries management there is no doubt that it happens. The Commissioner of ADF&G has emergency order authority and regulation authority. He is charged not only to protect the sustained yield of resources but the public good. That is why this year he extended the dip net fishery in the Kasilof to the bridge, increased the bag limit to 6 fish in the Kasilof, and kept the sport fishery open with the one fish bag limit when all other users were closed. To say he favored commercial fisherman is not defendable with his actions. He went outside the management plans to favor the sport and PU fisheries while staying in the management plans and fishing time limitations on the commercial fishery. I hope the Commissioner extends the PU fishery for the rest of this week but that will be his call.
Therefore, when a Commissioner does this it is up to the public and Board of Fish to review the actions and make comments to the bodies that are decision makers. In some cases that may be the local representatives and in other cases the Board of Fish members.
What I find interesting is that sport fisherman and PU fisherman are hardly ever restricted in the UCI sockeye fisheries. There is plently of fish and even this year fish are available and abundant - the ADF&G took a precautionary action in the closure - felt they would get the escapement and then reopen. Most experienced managers in UCI felt that this would happen but had to warm the public that Kenai was weak and they did not have the tools to say when it would reopen. Today, there are over 600,000 sockeye in the river available to harvest - people just need to chase them up the river and of course Russian River is just starting.
So from my perspective ADF&G did a good job this year with the tools they had in the plans. That does not mean that the Kasilof terminal fishery and its use should not be discussed in full. I personally did not support starting its' use on June 28th.
You guys take this stuff way to seriously, lighten up a little.
What's my point?
Marcus, what's my point? Do you think that I'm beating around the bush here? I think my point is obvious. When the nets go down the fish don't make it into the river. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not against commercial fishing. I just think F&G over reacted a little when they closed the river to all forms of fishing last week. Just about every salmon run has been late this year for the Cook inlet drainages and just about every run, eventually, has either met or surpassed what it did in 04 and 05. Why didn't F&G start by just putting commercial fishing on hold for a few days to see what was going on with this run? I personally don't think that sport fisherman alone have all that great of an impact on the overall # of fish that make it to their spawning grounds, commercial fisherman do. Another personal opinion is that F&G didn't want to deal with all those commercial fisherman complaining about "why do we have to stop fishing but you continue to let the sport fisherman fish"? I think that F&G's decision to temporarily stop sport fishing had more to do with politics than the idea that this run could not support even that kind of pressure. Not saying that I am right, just saying that this is my opinion.
I for one am glad that the fishery will be re-opened, and think that Fish and Game and the BOF did a commendable job in interpreting the data they had available.
My question is, now that fishing will be re-opened, will the commercial fleet be fishing 24/7 with emergency openings all week long, or will they be kept to the two day openings on Mondays and Thursdays?
I would like to try and hit some reds in the middle river later this week, but if the nets are going to be in the water 24/7 it may change my plans.
Getting informed. . .
1) When the nets go down the fish don't make it into the river. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not against commercial fishing.
2) I just think F&G over reacted a little when they closed the river to all forms of fishing last week.
3) Why didn't F&G start by just putting commercial fishing on hold for a few days to see what was going on with this run?
4) I personally don't think that sport fisherman alone have all that great of an impact on the overall # of fish that make it to their spawning grounds, commercial fisherman do.
5) Another personal opinion is that F&G didn't want to deal with all those commercial fisherman complaining about "why do we have to stop fishing but you continue to let the sport fisherman fish"?
6) I think that F&G's decision to temporarily stop sport fishing had more to do with politics than the idea that this run could not support even that kind of pressure. Not saying that I am right, just saying that this is my opinion.[
Did you bother to stop in, call, or e-mail your area ADF&G biologists in an effort to understand management plans and why they made their decisions? Or is it easier to just criticize, expressing ill-informed notions that accomplish nothing except to fuel the fires of controversy?
For instance, #1 is silly. When the nets are in the water, some fish still make it into the river. Overall, do you know what percentage of the runs are allocated to the river? What percentage to the gill nets? Do you know how run size and timing affect those percentages? Concerning #2, did you ask our biologists why? Concerning #3, did you ask? Concerning #4, do you have data backing up your opinion? And so on. . . ad nauseum. . .
Personally, I think our biologists, given the constraints under which they must work, do a fine job of managing Alaska's fisheries. Ill-informed, divisive, special interest opinions are counter-productive.
To Sockeye Charlie: Call 262-9368 and pose your question to Jeff Fox, George Pappas, or Larry Marsh — all area ADF&G biologists. They should be able to give you an answer.
Read his post Marcus, they are all just his OPINIONS, which he is entitled too. Seems to me people can't have a conversation in this forum (Fishing) without holding a degree in fishery's management without you chiming in with your "comments"........"ad nauseum"........give me a break.
Last edited by AkHunter45; 07-31-2006 at 10:21.
I agree with you, I have been watching many of the threads on here lately and people are really attacking other people for their opinions. Marcus I do not know you so I am not going to make any assumptions about you. But I would like to let you know that when I read your posts you really come across as argumentative and unwilling to listen to others on the forum. If you are not this way in person that is great, I just thought you may like to know how you come across to the thousands of people who read these forums.
I'm with these fellas, lighten up. Were all on the same side. Ties some flies, and breathe in, breathe out......
Its FISHING. No ones asking to date your teenage daughter.
fishing and happieness
Fishing is fun, talking about fishing is fun, asking questions about and learning more about fishing is fun. If it is not fun for you to fish, then buy your fish, it is a HECK of a lot cheaper. If talking about fishing gets you worked up? Then don't talk about it, I would hate to have you get a heart attack from getting worked up discussing fishing. If you already know it all and don't need to learn anymore, then why be here at all?
Meanwhile back at the river....
Hey guys, I wonder if any new reports are coming in on today's dipnetting on the Kenai?
Should be good I would think, I was going to head down that way to fish the Russian but with the current weather forecasts I think I will wait.
Opinions versus facts. . .
Thanks, AkHunter45, and to all my apologies for if I sound contentious. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Some opinions are based on special interests, some on prejudice, some on facts, and some on a combination of these and more. What is wrong with asking that opinion be based on facts and data? I am contending for rational, informed discussion — that's all.
Originally Posted by AkHunter45
Cook Inlet fisheries are the most contentious in the state — a fact made plain by Commission Campbell in a meeting down here last week. All I'm asking is that before bashing ADF&G, the gill nets, the guides or whomever, that one take the time and trouble to become informed, taking one's questions to the managers themselves for perspective and correction if needed. What can possibly be accomplished by ill-informed opinion except further fueling the fires of contention?
Opinions and policies based on facts and data help us decide contentious issues as neighbors, not as enemies.