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Thread: Hornady XTP 500 gr at 1400fps into Yogi

  1. #1
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    Default Hornady XTP 500 gr at 1400fps into Yogi

    Anybody willing to contrast and compare a 500gr Hornady XTP bullet at 1400fps terminal performance in something like a large bear versus another bullet such as a Ranger Rick 535gr Keith (wheel weight, non-hardened)? I know how the Ranger Rick bullets perform, thanks to Rick for sharing pictures and discussion ...but what about the XTP? Is it going to explode or will it penetrate from nose to scrotum and shatter spine all along the way?

    Thanks,
    Brian

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    I have noted often enough that harcast can go thru an animal and won't drop for some distance. Shot them from the .30-30AI on up to my .457WWG in the past and they can do just that or literally knock them down right now.

    Solids are generally for DG and with good results but tissue damage will often come by the use of either soft points and or the use of bonded hollow points liken to the Swift pistol bullets. I suspect the XTP will work just fine and cause extensive internal organ damage on a massive scale that the end result should be 'bang flop"! Yogi is referred to Black Bear I suspect and will work perfect "magic".

    I am no "expert" in this study only gathered from my personal use on Moose and Grizzlies and Black Bear.

    I do have both loaded up for 2 of my pistols, being a 10mm with 200grn BTB and 200 Xtp's and with the .45 LC 325 Swift bonded hollows and big hardcast.

    If you want bone work the Hardcast is a perfect example of a solid in the field that will penetrate and neither fragmentate nor stop half way in penetration. If you want massive tissue damage then by all means use the like of the Swift bonded hollows and I suspect the bigger heavier than thou bullets for your big hand cannon will work perfectly.

    just my opinion and .03

    regards,

  3. #3

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    I don't have any experience with the 50 cal XTP, Brian, so take my experience with a grain of salt. I have used both the 44 cal and 45 cal 300 grain XTPs fairly extensively at velocities ranging from around 800 fps up to 2400fps or so. The cartridges included 44 special, 45 LC, 44 mag (rifle and handgun), 454, 444 Marlin, a 44 wildcat based on the 45-70 and a 54 caliber muzzleloader with sabots.

    That pretty well brackets the velocity you're talking about and includes shots on game with each, as well as targets and a small bit of expansion testing in dry newsprint.

    In round numbers with the 44 and 45, I'd say that 1400 fps impact velocity is about the bottom end you can expect really significant expansion. As the velocity drops toward 1100 expansion falls off quickly, and by the time you drop below 1000 you get virtually none. On the other end of the scale, when impact velocities top around 1800 fps, expansion starts to get violent. By the time you top 2200 or so, the bullets really start to come apart. For controlled expansion at velocities over 1800 I've had much better luck with the Speer 300 SPs in 44, and their 45's weren't far behind.

    In truth, I didn't like the expansion characteristics of the .429 300's of either brand at over 2000 fps, so I've switched to heavy jacket 300 grain Hawks out of that 44 wildcat. With their .050 jackets, they're virtually "solids" when velocity drops below 1800 or so.

    What does that have to do with your question about 50 cal XTP's?

    Who knows without shooting them. But if construction and performance are similar to the same make of bullet in other cals, I would expect them to expand some at 1400, but that it would drop off rapidly along with drops in velocity. I can't imagine them fragmenting at such low velocities when they will hold together at least to 1800 or so. You're not talking about high velocity use, so I wouldn't have any qualms about using them.

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    The wheel weight bullets are not hardcast and they mushroom nicely ...same with Lyman #2 alloy as far as I know, although I think the Lyman #2 is tougher and may expand a tad less. Don't know for sure.

    "Yogi" means "any Alaskan bear". I'm just looking for conjecture from those more experienced and/or more knowledgeable than me on how these bullets may perform. I know that some bullets expand very fast and end up not driving deep into the animal and/or coming apart. Don't want that. A best compromise between expansion (which should equal diameter of wound channel I hope) and penetration (shoulders, spine, 40" of meat) is what I'm interested in ...and a big sledge hammer whollop from a wide meplat and high bullet weight. If my wife and kids are on the line, I want something that'll stall the bear in his tracks if not drop it immediately... time for shot #2. I already know that a wide variety of solutions will work on blackies, so 'think grizzly' and higher performance than what a black might require.

    What's "DG" mean?

    Thx,
    BD

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    <snip>
    Who knows without shooting them. But if construction and performance are similar to the same make of bullet in other cals, I would expect them to expand some at 1400, but that it would drop off rapidly along with drops in velocity. I can't imagine them fragmenting at such low velocities when they will hold together at least to 1800 or so. You're not talking about high velocity use, so I wouldn't have any qualms about using them.
    You guys are very helpful. The reason for 1400 fps is because at Hodgdon, with H110/296 that's what you get with the max load for a 500gr XTP. Chamber pressure is claimed to be 51,900 at that load and the gun is rated for 60,000. No clue about the recoil but I'd like to find out . I'd have to load some up and check for sticking and pushed-out primers before I'd decide what the limiting factor is ...brass or me. I'll do that, but I'm getting ahead of myself. I have 300 ea 335 gr plinkers from Rainier to shoot, 100 ea 370 gr Cast Performance, and from Ranger Rick I have 100 ea 440 gr WFNGCs and 200 ea 535 gr Keiths on the way. Got plenty of shooting to do before trying those XTPs ...although I would like to have some for side-by-side testing.

    What's more like a bear for expansion and penetration testing? Wet newsprint/phonebooks or dry newsprint/phonebooks?

    Brian

  6. #6

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    "What's more like a bear for expansion and penetration testing? Wet newsprint/phonebooks or dry newsprint/phonebooks?"

    Neither. They're good for comparing with other bullets shot into the same medium. Beyond that, any claims to similarity with flesh are right up there with the results of push polls we're all getting on the telephone.

    It's hard enough comparing one deer to the next and predicting what will happen on the third deer. After you've shot ten or twenty deer with the same variety of bullet, you are probably ready to start drawing some basic conclusions. That is, if you shoot them in the same place at the same angle and velocity. Same with elk or moose.

    Until someone has whacked a whole bunch of bears with a particular bullet, I'll put their opinions on how it will work on bear in the same file with Hillary promises. Right there with the dry confetti or wet mush from shooting into newsprint.

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    Default Hillary and Bear Hunting'...??

    Brian,

    Since you ask for just conjecture, this should go well. It is a better subject than discussing politics.

    I ain't shot nothing but trees with the 500 S&W. I have shot some things with the 44 and 45 caliber Hornady XTP bullets. I'm pretty much in agreement with BrownBear as to velocity and expansion etc. Except in addition to say, it is energy level (which is a product of velocity [squared]) that makes "expansion". I put that in quotes because what happens to pistol bullets isn't necessarilly expansion. Further it is bore size that determines the rate of energy transfer. What that means is that a 35 caliber bullet and a 45 caliber bullet of standard weight, or whatever, with the same energy (here the lighter bullet would need to be faster), the larger bore will "deliver energy" (that's not a scientific term) faster. (bullet shape plays a factor also) Expansion would be faster, initial impact damage will be faster, or all in a shallow area. This can be seen with a 9mm 115 grain JHP and a 250 grain cast FP 44 spcl, shot into a gallon jug of water. They have about equal water jug performance but the 44 will carry on to exit and poke holes. I'd like to fill a 5 gallon bucket with water and put a lid on it, shoot one of these big slugs through the chronograph into this bucket, with the video running of course. I'll buy the buckets.

    The prediction of impact damage with a 500 grain XTP .500" bullet at 1400 fps would be extensive with almost total destruction of bullet and a wound cavity as wide as it is deep.

    I know very little about the construction of the .500" XTP JHP so will assume it is the same as the 45 caliber 300 grain XTP. The 500 grain .500" bullet will have an SD of .286 vs the .452" 300 grain SD of .210, so it will have an edge in penetration.

    The biggest problem that I have seen with all handgun JSP's has been the unpredictable performance as to expansion. This usually results in some level of nose deformation which cause the bullet to veer off the intended course and miss the vitals and/or limit penetration. Hard cast are on the other hand very predictable in that they do not expand or deform and they do penetrate in a straight line. The bonded and partition bullets are excluded from this synopsis for two reasons. I have very little experience with them and they are particularly designed to reduce the adverse effects of quick expansion or over expansion in animal tissue. I've only used the Swift and the Kodiak and they are more predictable and less violent expansion. The Swift is particularly tough.

    In general I would not use the XTP for anything more massive than deer regardless of caliber. I have found that with only one exception of use, nothing is better or more predictable than heavy hard cast bullets in big bore handguns. That exception would be the general category of deer sized and smaller including bipeds.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Brian, so many good points of view and/or experience. The few handgun "hunters" I have came across have used hardcast and scopes. One fella in particular a mechanic that I met here in Venetie quite a few yrs. back killed the 2nd largest Brown Bear with his .454 Casull in Boone and Crockett for a handgun. It takes quite abit of skill and confidence to take that task on I assume and differs greatly from tree stand hunting. When it is a spot and stalk you either have the right tools and mindset or don't do it all-a rifle is better. Most handguns that most carry is for protection and what surprises me the most when I ask what they carry for loads is most anything from hollow points to hardcast with the simple perspective it is a "magnum".

    I have one personal friend who is my father in is his prime would wander(in a Metropolitan ) the Interior from Gold Camps to visit some fine old native people to swedes, irishmen and the likes with nothing but his Smith .44 mag 4 screw model 29 4"bbl. He always carried 240 grain hollow points and I am not certain if they were Speers or whatever but he has killed a number of both Grizzlies and Black bear with them bullets along with Moose. Hard to believe? No it is not but surely when you listen to him it is like you were there yourself pretty amazing. Was it the perfect setup? By todays thoughts and standards with bullets etc. probably not but back then it was the "standard" and could and did all. He survived to date is now 86 yrs. old and passed that pistol to the oldest( I am second oldest-darn!) born and it was on its 3 rd cylinder-he shot alot back then.

    I don't believe the bullet velocities were as fast as todays but I am in agreement with the right "mindset" and lots of practice and one particular bullet that you can do what you set out to do-if you choose to hunt bears of any species with a handgun. As some have stated bullets do different things on different occasions and nothing is written in stone.

    I have sold both my Casulls and figure "not" to hunt bears with a handgun and I now stick to the mild well behaved .44 magnum with my "hardcasted bullets"--if all I had was hollow points then so be it. 22 calibers have killed so.........

    These scenarios interest me always, being brought up as a woodsman and a hunter and have lived in the Brooks Range in various villages etc...... that anything can be done and has been done. It is a "mindset". Arguments with this and that will go on till the earth ends but if you don't venture out then nothing and I mean nothing will get done.

    By the way DG means Dangerous Game et al .. thick skinned. Moose,Black Bears and Grizzlies are not thick skinned animals. They can be killed with a handgun and they can be killed with a hollow point and they can be killed even with a solid and they can in turn kill you. Facts of life.

    I hope you kill your bear this spring if that is what you are going to do.

    best regards,

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    You don't have to worry about me ...You won't find me hunting bears with a handgun. For personal protection, I don't think a handgun has much advantage other than being of more use when things are up close and personal. I'd rather try to turn the barrel of handgun towards the boiler room than a rifle or shotgun with the barrel pointing the wrong way when when a bear is all over you.

    It's funny but I rarely see bears while my wife has had several close encounters, including fake charges and bears growling at her and what not. She's kind of paranoid about the whole thing and always tells me to "bring the gun" whenever we're out in the boonies. If we really think we're in bear country, like in our second favorite blueberry spot (known for bears), then she carries a 12 gauge with slugs while I carry the revolver and we keep the kids reasonably close.

    Nope, I see the 500 as nothing but a toy and a tool. Fun to shoot, but it's for personal insurance when in the field. I'm fairly sold on heavy cast lead bullets rather than any of the soft point jacketed bullets ...I was just noticing today that the XTP actually comes in a 500 grain version in .500 caliber ...got me to thinking. But like Murphy says, all the highly successful kills that I've heard of were with cast lead ...not always hard cast, but cast. The only 2 killings that I know of with a .44 Mag is one where the bear wandered off to die after mauling a guy and taking 6 rounds first (he lived just fine) and that guy in Anchorage in 2004 that shot the bear on one of the local trails ...and it was still alive when the authorities showed up, just disabled. My philosophy is to carry the most that you can personally handle ...I started by owning .357 Mags, then a .44 Mag, then a .480 Ruger, and now a .500 S&W. They all sound worse on paper than they really are and even the 500 looks small next to a big brown. The only time that I've gotten sore hands was when I was learning how to grip a revolver right ...split the web between thumb and forefinger with a .44 Mag once, smacked my knuckles on trigger guards a few times, peeled the skin off my thumb from thumbnail to knuckle by a semiautomatic's slide once. Live and learn. At least I never cut off the end of my thumb by putting it past the end of the cylinder like that guy with the .460. Do it right and they're all easy enough to shoot.

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by tananaBrian View Post
    You don't have to worry about me ...You won't find me hunting bears with a handgun. For personal protection, I don't think a handgun has much advantage other than being of more use when things are up close and personal. I'd rather try to turn the barrel of handgun towards the boiler room than a rifle or shotgun with the barrel pointing the wrong way when when a bear is all over you.

    It's funny but I rarely see bears while my wife has had several close encounters, including fake charges and bears growling at her and what not. She's kind of paranoid about the whole thing and always tells me to "bring the gun" whenever we're out in the boonies. If we really think we're in bear country, like in our second favorite blueberry spot (known for bears), then she carries a 12 gauge with slugs while I carry the revolver and we keep the kids reasonably close.

    Nope, I see the 500 as nothing but a toy and a tool. Fun to shoot, but it's for personal insurance when in the field. I'm fairly sold on heavy cast lead bullets rather than any of the soft point jacketed bullets ...I was just noticing today that the XTP actually comes in a 500 grain version in .500 caliber ...got me to thinking. But like Murphy says, all the highly successful kills that I've heard of were with cast lead ...not always hard cast, but cast. The only 2 killings that I know of with a .44 Mag is one where the bear wandered off to die after mauling a guy and taking 6 rounds first (he lived just fine) and that guy in Anchorage in 2004 that shot the bear on one of the local trails ...and it was still alive when the authorities showed up, just disabled. My philosophy is to carry the most that you can personally handle ...I started by owning .357 Mags, then a .44 Mag, then a .480 Ruger, and now a .500 S&W. They all sound worse on paper than they really are and even the 500 looks small next to a big brown. The only time that I've gotten sore hands was when I was learning how to grip a revolver right ...split the web between thumb and forefinger with a .44 Mag once, smacked my knuckles on trigger guards a few times, peeled the skin off my thumb from thumbnail to knuckle by a semiautomatic's slide once. Live and learn. At least I never cut off the end of my thumb by putting it past the end of the cylinder like that guy with the .460. Do it right and they're all easy enough to shoot.

    Brian
    No one crossed any threads when they screwed on your head. It's nice and straight, in my book.

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    Here are some of my results from mastermind testing into the target backstop. I was sighting in my nef handi-rifle. The target was pinned to a piece of 3/8? plywood. The backstop was natural sand bank with some little rocks.

    I guessed as to which pile each bullet base belonged to. They are definately different and the larger one has a bit of a locking ring on the jacket.

    400 sierras weighed 385.7, 389, 396.4 and a 30 grain bullet base. 1900 from the chrony

    500 XTP wieghed 505.6, 481, 435 and a 77 grain bullet base. 1575 from the chrony

    I only removed what sand I could easily reach that is why the one wieghs more that 500 grains. The 500's are on the left in the pics.

    There is one 375 Barnes XPB that I shot into frozen sand. I stood on a chair and shot down 8-10 feet from the muzzle.
    These chrony 1935 FPS.
    Last edited by RMiller; 04-08-2008 at 13:30.
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    Nice bullets and pretty good performance from all. Sand and dirt are not as destructive for bullets as some would think and I think it is because the sand stops the rotation of the bullet much faster than some media. Water doesn't stop rotation until after the forward motion stops, everything else is somewhere in between these extremes. It is rotational energy that seems to rip a bullet into pieces and of course velocity increases that. Dirt and sand tend to keep bullets and parts compressed together. Shedding the jacket is common for all except bonded and partitioned bullets. The Barnes is sure a pretty specimen. It looks as if it just hit water.
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    The two bullets that ripped apart may have hit a rock or something in the dirt also.
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