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Thread: Take off strip length?????

  1. #1
    New member AKDSLDOG's Avatar
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    Default Take off strip length?????

    Whats the length you need to get these 3 air craft on floats off of a lake?

    super cub
    206
    beaver

    I am looking at some more land on a lake and was curious on these air craft.

    Thanks Curt

  2. #2

    Default How Long?

    How much wind?
    Obstructions?
    Load?
    Temp?
    Altitude?

    Never an easy question, and never an easy answer! Easy load one day is not possible the next.

  3. #3

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    Weight?
    Engine condition?
    Pilot experience?
    Float rigging?
    Surface conditions? (Your thread title is for a strip but the question is about floats?)
    I guess to best answer you and to quit being a smartass, every strip no matter how many times I'm in a place, is evaluated before a take off or landing. There are many variables for each and they always change. How much fuel do I have on board, what is my weight and how is it distributed, what is the surface condition,temp & humidity not to mention the wind.
    As a rule of thumb, the Cub is off first, the Beaver is off with the most and the 206 may be the most efficient for speed/fuel/load.
    Definately a Pandora's box kind of question!

  4. #4
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Default

    In a light wind situation, at or near sea level, on a 60 degree day,

    A 160hp Supercub on EDO 2000s, with a good pilot, will take MUCH less room than the Beaver or C-206. A 180 hp Super Cub jumps out even better.

    The Beaver will do just fine 800 feet or less depending on the wind, and load.

    A C-206 does not jump off the water and takes LOTS of room when loaded.

    Even my little 90 horse PA-11 on EDO 1400s will jump of the water in 400 feet as long as the conditions are right.

    But the same plane loaded, at 1200ft , on glassy water will take 1,000 feet to take off with me flying and around 1,400 feet for student float pilots.

    Sned me an e-mail I have some compariosn video shots.
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  5. #5
    New member AKDSLDOG's Avatar
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    Default

    Sorry, should of said "how long of a lake", not strip. ..... This lake is approx. 1100' in length (according to google earth) could be a little more but with a winter picture it's hard to tell were the shore line really ends. There is a lake 1/4 mile north that we could use if need be that is 1900' long. This property is at about 3500' elevation. Can't say any more till I own it! ....

    Sounds to me that we are just fine with eigther depending on weather.

    Thanks guys.
    Curt

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    Default Landing

    You might want to think about landing distance on glassy water, which takes more length than with any sort of wind. You're setting the attitude and letting it settle onto the water, because glassy water screws with your depth perception. Just something to think about. Good luck with the purchase.
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  7. #7
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Default

    3,500 FT?

    Depending on the area of the State, you could be waiting for a LONG time for that lake to thaw out enough to use.

    Of sourse this also depends on how much sun it gets, the water depth, any creeks that flow into it, and how much wind hits it.

    The mountain lakes that I use for float ratings around here are all fairly low in altitude compared to that and many of them do not thaw until late June.
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    Default

    Lets see if this photo works. It has some take-of distances marked for various aircraft I have operated out of that lake. A 180 horse Super Cub gets off the lake at the same place a Husky does...This is a small lake , about 1900 feet long at the best point, but you must get off the water by 1400 feet or you will hit the hills. It is surrounded by hills, but the lake is only at 350 ft above sea level.
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    New member mechek's Avatar
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    Default Take off length

    Hey Float Pilot,

    I have a pa-12 150 on edo 2000's. Regarding your photo. I'm surprised to see the pa-12 equiped w/ edos performed that much better than the one w/ baumanns. Were the planes about the same takeoff weight and are they both 150 horsepower?

    On floats w/ two guys, full tanks, & weekend gear how does your pa-11 compare to a pa12 loaded the same way?

    Thanks,

    Gary

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    New member mechek's Avatar
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    Default BTW

    Float Pilot,

    The reason I'm asking about your pa11's performance is I've considered your setup as an alternate to my pa12. The shortest take off of any floatplane I've seen was a stock j-3 on 1320's departing west at lk hood. Two medium sized guys took off into a slight headwind in about 5 seconds. Not sure about gas and gear on board. The plane was off the water as soon as it was on step.

    Gary

  11. #11
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Default

    Part of that is the angle of the engine mount in a J3. Mine is a J-3C-65 converted to a PA-11-90 using Atlee Dodge STCs. My engine is at a more level angle and my windshield is more sloped. Plus my fuel is now in the wing.

    In certain wind conditions I can jump out pretty fast. IF, I am by myself with half fuel on a windy day, I can get off the water in about 100 feet.

    At full gross weight it takes maybe 400 feet on a windy day and 900 to 1100 on glassy water.

    The Baumann Floats always seem to take longer to get off the water. BUT, they cruise faster in the air. Plus they have big flat tops and big locker hatches. In the case of the PA-12s they were almost identical. Plus I have flown Super Cubs with Baumanns and on EDOs. In a couple cases the same plane. The Baumanns just take longer off but then haul right along in the air.

    One of my local buddies had a 160 horse PA-18 on Baumann 2100s this last year, we timed it off the lake and made some marks on the shore.
    The take-off distance was exactly the same as my PA-11-90 in the same wind conditions. Both being at gross weight. But he has a nice starter, an electrical system, flaps, and more storage room in his floats. Plus he is faster in the air and has more range.

    For some reason he sold the floats and is selling the PA-18 so he can get a double wide cub built.
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    Lets see if this photo works. It has some take-of distances marked for various aircraft I have operated out of that lake. A 180 horse Super Cub gets off the lake at the same place a Husky does...This is a small lake , about 1900 feet long at the best point, but you must get off the water by 1400 feet or you will hit the hills. It is surrounded by hills, but the lake is only at 350 ft above sea level.
    Do you know the relative distances for those t.o. rolls?

  13. #13
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    For my PA-11-90 on EDO 1400s at gross and a PA-18-160 on Baumanns at gross, on glassy water, it was right at 1,200 feet. Plus or minus a 100 over the six or seven times we did it.

    As of the Small lake in the photo: It is @1,400 or 1,500 feet from the starting point marked to the little rock island. If you are not up by the island you are in deep moose nuggets. The lake ends soon there after and you have to get over a hill with tall dead spruce trees.

    The Husky and the 180 horse PA-18 on EDOS were getting off the water at around 800 feet. Again this was on glassy water or minimal wind.

    I have a video clip of a C-206 that was overloaded with tourist that could not get off a glassy water lake in 4,200 feet, at sea level here on Beluga Lake in Homer. It was just to warm, gflassy and heavy. And they tried it three times.

    Density altitude play a HUGE part with high lakes and takes no prisoners at sea level either.
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  14. #14

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    I have the same question but with "landing" distances and not take off. So with the same information given above, what are the landing distances for the same aircraft? I would be looking at hauling freight in and not taking off with it. Is "landing" distance more or less then "take off" distances?

  15. #15
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    A skilled float-plane pilot can land much shorter than the take-off run.

    Again the wind, water conditions and surounding terrain make a HUGE difference.
    For instance, glassy water is like landing on a mirror. You have no depth perception. So you must get as low as possible while passing the last known visual reference. Then set up a 100 to 150 feet per minute descent rate while flying a few mph above stall speed. Eventually your plane will find the water surface and then you can ease back on the power to settle into the water. If you goof up, you can skip off the surface of glassy water and bounce back into the air. Due to the higher speed, the other end of the lake seems to be coming up pretty fast. This causes some pilots to cut the power too soon, since they assume that they are only inches off the water. Often they are several feet in the air and the plane stalls and falls. A reveiew of the acident reports shows several of these types of accidents. Glassy water landings take five or six times the distance as landing on the same lake with a 5 mph wind.
    Additionally, glassy water takes longer for the plane to settle down off the step and into displacement taxi.

    If it is a lake surrounded by low laying muskeg then there is no problem.

    While instructing float clients, I set up a box of anchored buoys and have the client land inside a 20 ft wide by 20 ft long box. In a fair wind we can stop in about 80 feet.
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  16. #16
    New member AKDSLDOG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    3,500 FT?

    Depending on the area of the State, you could be waiting for a LONG time for that lake to thaw out enough to use.

    Of sourse this also depends on how much sun it gets, the water depth, any creeks that flow into it, and how much wind hits it.

    The mountain lakes that I use for float ratings around here are all fairly low in altitude compared to that and many of them do not thaw until late June.
    This cabin will only be used for a "moose hunting honey hole". ..... Then in the winter we would use the sno go's to hunt waskawy wittle wolfies!

    Thanks for all the info!

    Curt

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