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Thread: 45-70 or 457 Wild West magnum?

  1. #1

    Default 45-70 or 457 Wild West magnum?

    I'm wanting a good brusg rig for bear and moose out to 200yds or so and was thinking I'd send Wild West Guns a deosit and get them started on one for my arrival this spring. Logged on to their website and read this - After over five years of building Co-Pilots, experimenting with loads and hunting in Alaska, we came to the conclusion that the 45-70, no matter what the load, just didn't have the extra power needed for reliable field use on Dangerous Game." So, what do you guys think? Is it worth the extra $$$ for brass and bullets to loqad the 457 WWM they are touting or will the 45-70, with proper attention to bullet and load, do the trick? http://www.wildwestguns.com/Ammunition/ammunition.html

  2. #2
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    Default absolute hype and b.s.

    compare the velocity difference between a .45-70 ( handload ) , .50 Alaskan and the W.W. .457 with a 400 gr. ( plus or minus 20 grains ) bullet , almost none . A reasonably hot , but safe , .45-70 handload in a modern lever can easily nudge 2,000 f.p.s. so why spend extra money on a rig that will give you the same results . If you really want a hotrod lever than get with a wildcat like a .375-.348 on a 71 Winchester . It's a hassle blowing out and annealing cases but you will have something very special when you're done . I've edged up to .375 H&H velocities with mine . My advice would be to buy a Marlin 1895 , get rid of the ridiculous safety , restock it and be happy .

  3. #3
    Member alaskamonte's Avatar
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    Default Steaming Pile Of Misinformation IMO-

    Quote Originally Posted by FORTUNATESON View Post
    I'm wanting a good brusg rig for bear and moose out to 200yds or so and was thinking I'd send Wild West Guns a deosit and get them started on one for my arrival this spring. Logged on to their website and read this - After over five years of building Co-Pilots, experimenting with loads and hunting in Alaska, we came to the conclusion that the 45-70, no matter what the load, just didn't have the extra power needed for reliable field use on Dangerous Game." So, what do you guys think? Is it worth the extra $$$ for brass and bullets to loqad the 457 WWM they are touting or will the 45-70, with proper attention to bullet and load, do the trick? http://www.wildwestguns.com/Ammunition/ammunition.html
    Never mind the zillions of bison killed with black powder loads in the .45-70 you might contact Buffalo Bore Ammo and Garret for the real deal on smokeless loads in the .45-70.

    Jeff Cooper his-self commented on the .45-70 in the little Marlin some years ago (I test fired HIS gun!) that's been used in Africa with much success without this nonsense .457 BS.

    I really have to bring the question of "Who is WE that did the determination?

    Dare I mention that the author of said nonsense is a defrocked New Jersey lawyer that hasn't hunted squat in Alaska (tho he ain't a bad marketer) ?

    Should I mention the whole Lautenberg/Tony Knowles connection?

    Sorry, it's election time so dirt is well, dirt!

  4. #4
    Member Fuse's Avatar
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    Default I disagree

    Personal opinion - I use a Marlin 1985 and have no problems with it. I started using the Hornady LeverRevolution 45-70 ammo this year and it is all I will shoot now. Great velocities, 325gr bullet, and the ballistics are much better than you get with any of the traditional flat nose 45-70 loads, which I have found is key at rangers over 100 yards. Dropped my moose in one shot with it this year and would recommend it to anyone. I don't like the abuse on the shoulder from the .375 or other loads mentioned, no matter how I much I shoot them the recoil on the 45-70 just seems much mellower and easier to deal with. Just my $0.02.

    Fuse

  5. #5

    Default

    Go with the 45-70.

  6. #6

    Default

    Doesn't sound like the company is much thought of. Maybe I'll buy a few accessories and fix up a Marlin myself and save a few $$$. I've used Garrett and Buffalo Bore before and thought they would do the trick until I read that. Knew your moose and bears were bigger than their Montana kin I've hunted but started having visions of NIGhtmARE moose... Thanks for the input.

  7. #7

    Talking 45-70

    I'd go with a well loaded and accurate 45-70 and never look back. And if you want to be in the juice, get an 1885 highwall or Ruger, and then you can approach .458 win mag figures. Good luck.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

  8. #8

    Default 45-70

    I would go with the 45-70. In fact I would not let them do it if it was free. Load a 400 grain Kodiak bullet and 54 grains of H322. Put XS receiver sight on it. I had a gunsmith disable that stupid safety, tune the trigger, cut the barrel to 20" and put a full length magazine tube on mine. I put a decent recoil pad on it and did some epoxy work to the stock behind the receiver.

  9. #9

    Default

    The plain old 45-70 doesn't have any moss growing on it, even if you don't push the pressures that far. For me all the talk about "adquacy for dangerous game" is pure pitch- spin to try to take advantage of folks' nervousness about bears by folks that have something to sell. I haven't shot bear with it, but comparing the impact of 400 grain HC loads at 1800 and 2000 fps on other game, I don't see any difference. So I hold my loads down to 1800 with a clear conscience while reducing wear and tear on my guns. If 2000fps makes you feel better, go for it.

    On the other hand, if you think more is needed and simply want to spend extra to have a cool rifle, I'd track down one of the new release Model 71's (originally 348) along the lines of what logman recommends. I've got an original 71 in 450 Alaskan (458-348) and it's a hoot to load for and shoot. And if 400 grains at 2000 fps is better than 1800, imagine how much better the same bullet is when pushed a whole lot faster by that big case. Call it the "big brother" of a hot 45-70.

  10. #10

    Default

    .45-70 all the way. It is a stout thumper in it's own right, and just try to find ammo for that other round anywhere but home. Won't do it.
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

  11. #11
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    Default 45/70

    I agree with all of the above, I bought my GG when they first came out and it's hammered everything I've hit with it.....I've never felt undergunned loaded with Garrett Hammerheads. If your lookin' to spiffy yours up I have a used WWG synthetic stock that will drop in if your interested.................

  12. #12
    Moderator kingfisherktn's Avatar
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    Default

    If I may ask, how did you come up with a used stock, did you upgrade to something else?

    If the other gentleman isn't interested I am.

    kingfisherktn
    Last edited by kingfisherktn; 02-04-2008 at 12:20. Reason: added info

  13. #13
    Premium Member Marc Taylor's Avatar
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    Default

    .45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads.

    Incredibly lethal. I "Hammered" two bears and a goat with it last year.

    Immediately lose the safety, which is a drop-out/in procedure at $13.

    Recoil Pad a plus, but not absolutely necessary.

    I love my ghost ring, but there are many after-market sights available. I've held one with a long eye-relief Leupold and like that option as well.

    I'm going with an extended mag soon, for the weight and added firepower.

    The options/add-ons are endless, and make for interesting off-season hobbywork!

    I feel like King Kong when I carry this rifle...

    Taylor



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    Default 45/70

    How about the Buffalo Bore ammunition? The specs are almost the same.

  15. #15

    Default If you have any doubts about the 45/70

    read the January issue of Guns and Ammo article on meplat bullets....

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    Default

    I've had my co-pilot for about 10years now and I still love it. Everybody who has squeezed off a round has always had a smile. Can get kinda pricy but well worth it, no matter what I think of the shop.

    I'd stick with the 45/70 and dont look back.

  17. #17
    Member FLtoAK05's Avatar
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    Default 45-70

    I've had my Co-Pilot 2 years and absolutely love it, I got nothing but good service from the folks at WWG. I've shot HSM 457, Leverevolution, Buffalo Bore and Garrett Hammerhead, it likes it all. Hey Marc, missed seeing you in Sept., went by the store twice to get some new stuff. Lets go to the fights again at the center.

    BGiddens


  18. #18
    Premium Member Marc Taylor's Avatar
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    Default

    FLtoAK05-
    Get the training wheels out from under that rifle, would ya!? Beautiful piece you got there!
    Sorry I missed you. Was I out for sheep or moose? I trust you were greeted and treated well in my absence?

    xmohuntr -
    Don't know the specifics about the composition, but I'm assured the Garretts are harder than the Buffalo Bore. I had a Buffalo Bore shatter on a bone hit last spring at 25 yards. When I mean shatter, I mean there was nothing left over the size of a BB, and it all settled less than 3 inches from the bone. Looked like a load of 6-shot...
    Of course, there have been thousands of happy Buffalo Bore customers, and I take nothing away from them or that; I just have settled on Garrett Hammerheads and SuperJack Ammo based on strong recommendation and assurance of no more fractures. Some SuperJack 350's stopped a goat on a ledge from reaching the ledge. That is what I need.

    Oneriver -
    Did Randy Garrett write that himself? He sent me a CD with loads of back-up material and photos on it. There was included some extremely interesting information on meplats that I DIDN'T know. And I thought up until then that I knew everything... <grin>


    I mean, King Frickin' Kong with that rifle!

    Taylor

  19. #19
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
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    Thumbs up 45-70

    Go with the 45-70 or 450 Marlin.......do not suggest the 457 WWG

  20. #20
    Member smarion's Avatar
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    Default Penetration

    Go to Garrett's website. There is an article there that does a good job describing the fact that any of the hotrod .45 calibers are less effective when it comes to penetration than the good old 45-70. When you start pushing those big heavy bullets too fast, their penetration actually decreases. Nobody has ever really found a good explanation why but it has been tested and proven correct over and over.

    Shoot any heavy, hardcast lead bullet, with a large meplat and you will have just the ticket for anything that walks. Garrett and Buffalo Bore are both great if you do not handload.

    Good shooting!

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