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Thread: Finally, an answer!!! Kenai 50's approved

  1. #1

    Default Finally, an answer!!! Kenai 50's approved

    The DNR Commissioner has approved the new regulations to allow 50 h.p. on the Kenai River (KRSMA). This will go into effect on March 1, 2008. The rules on overall boat size remained, limiting boats to 21 feet in length and 106 inches in width with a grandfather clause in effect until 2010.

    The older 2-stroke motors are allowed in all months except for July and the year for total ban has been eliminated from the regulation at this point.

    Here is a link to the DNR announcement:

    http://www.dnr.state.ak.us/standard/...ns%20Finalized

    So, if you are pro or con (frankly, I was ambivalent on this issue), there is closure to this issue.

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    Thanks, I had heard rumor earlier today but couldn't verify. Looks like a comprimise was made and the river will benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskanfishguides View Post
    . . So, if you are pro or con (frankly, I was ambivalent on this issue), there is closure to this issue.
    Probably not. No closure, I'm afraid. . just more hard feelings. . more pent-up animosity. . more people shoved off the river. .

    There were, after all, more ways than kicking people off the river in July to benefit the river.

    Too bad for the folks who use two-strokes, some of which have undoubtedly been in use longer than some commercial users have been in business. No grandfather clause for them. . .


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    So am I to assume that the folks who want more drift days are not disenfranchisng those of us who use motors in part because we are not physically able to operate a drift boat or can't afford to hire a guide? That would impact everyone who uses a motor......a lot more than just the folks who have old technology 2-strokes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gusdog44 View Post
    So am I to assume that the folks who want more drift days are not disenfranchisng those of us who use motors in part because we are not physically able to operate a drift boat or can't afford to hire a guide? That would impact everyone who uses a motor......a lot more than just the folks who have old technology 2-strokes.
    A valid point, gus, though greatly over-stated.

    Yes, an additional drift day or two would disenfranchise certain people, but for what, a day or two per week? How does such relatively minor inconvenience compare with kicking certain people off the river for an entire month during the peak of the season?


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    Well, it will displace a lot of boats to the other days, and will create another "super Tuesday" effect. Tuesdays are some of the most crowded days on the river and next would be a day after a second drift day. It will increase congestion on the river, add more guides and damage spawing redds as people would drag anchors over the beds.

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    Thumbs up More drift-only days. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Well, it will displace a lot of boats to the other days, and will create another "super Tuesday" effect. Tuesdays are some of the most crowded days on the river and next would be a day after a second drift day. It will increase congestion on the river, add more guides and damage spawing redds as people would drag anchors over the beds.
    I don't see that happening at all, yukon. An additional day or two of drift-only would surely encourage the guide industry to do more drift-fishing, taking pressure off the motorized use of the river, which is what we're after, isn't it? Less motorized use equates to less pollution, less erosion, less siltification, and a quieter, safer, more enjoyable angling experience. It would be my guess that the guide industry would be much in favor of more drift days.

    Nor would additional drift days add more guides. And why would anyone—guide or private angler—drag anchors through spawning redds? Is that being done? By whom? Where?


  8. #8

    Default More drift days...

    Would intensify congestion on non drift days for sure.

    Yukon is totally on with his assessment....
    You'll end up with a "Super Wednesday" or the like. Contrary to popular belief the river is not just fished by guides. It's the private angler who chooses to access the river by motorized boat that is being displaced. Additional drift days will not hurt the guide industry....
    It will be the private angler that can't afford two boats that is displaced to the non-drift days which will intensify congestion on those days.
    Last edited by Sockeye Charlie; 02-07-2008 at 09:48. Reason: spelling

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    An additional day or two of drift-only would surely encourage the guide industry to do more drift-fishing, taking pressure off the motorized use of the river, which is what we're after, isn't it?

    Whether I could or couldn't guide on that day, I would buy a drift boat, as I am sure a few others would as well, but not all as many can't row (phisical/health reasons) and 20% of their income would be taken away.
    You would take motorized use off the river for that day but would increase it other days. Look as Super Tuesdays.

    And why would anyone—guide or private angler—drag anchors through spawning redds? Is that being done? By whom? Where?

    The entire lower river above Eagle Rock is a spawning bed. People sit on anchor and fish, they also drag the anchor because they are not strong enough, or too lazy to stay on the oars. More drift boats = more anchors on the spawning beds. I could easily argue this does more damage than bank erosion due to wakes.

    So if you want more crowds, guides, more hydrocarbons support drift only days.

    Nor would additional drift days add more guides.

    Pretty simple, the demand is there, you take a day away, 20% of our fishing time, and you create opportunity for more guides as guys would be subbing out more business.

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    Thumbs up Good all around. . .

    Well, Charlie and yukon. . . we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I and many others see an additional drift day or two as a very good thing for the river, which is already stressed by too much motorized use and a good thing for the guide industry. I know I'd pay much more for a drift trip than for a motorized trip.

    And certainly, as we move to correct current abuses of the river, there will be some trade-offs, some price to pay. Consider the poor folks using 2-strokes, they're paying a big price. Others may have to adapt too as we look for a permanent solution to the Kenai's problems.

    ***************************

    On a very positive note, has anyone heard of the "Tyee Club"? Talk about sportsmanship! The Kenai/Kasilof guide industry should consider a like "club" for area anglers.
    http://www.tyeeclub.org/


    "The Tyee Club of British Columbia began in 1924 with a group of anglers who returned to Campbell River each year in pursuit of the elusive "Tyee" - a coastal Indian word meaning, "the chief", a Chinook salmon, 30 pounds or larger.

    Tyee fishing here is different. You'll fish quietly in small, classic row boats. No motors are allowed in the Tyee pool. The rower will slip the boat into the currents and eddies of the pool, keeping a basic plug or spoon beating in the current. The angler must stay focused on the action of the lure as it is felt in the hand as much as being seen by the beating of the rod tip. With the slightest change in the beat, the hook must be set, fast and hard. The battle with a Pacific Chinook Salmon is on - anything can happen! If the fish is boated, and weighs 30 pounds or more, the catch is recorded and the angler becomes a member of the Tyee Club!"



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    Smile Comments and questions. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Whether I could or couldn't guide on that day, I would buy a drift boat, as I am sure a few others would as well, but not all as many can't row (phisical/health reasons) and 20% of their income would be taken away.

    Some observations and questions regarding your post:

    1) If, as you claim, business would simply slide to the next day, there would be no loss of income. Which is it?

    2) Are you/the guide industry willing that anyone other than 2-stroke owners should pay a price to clean up the Kenai's current mess?

    3) If the Kenai has an overabundance of guides, it is a condition the guide industry/commercial sportfishing interests have brought on themselves.

    4) Not the Kenai River nor its owners, Alaskan citizens, owe any guide or the guide industry a living.


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    1) If, as you claim, business would simply slide to the next day, there would be no loss of income. Which is it?

    What???? No loss of income, currently guides fish 5 days a week, take a day away and that leaves 4 days, a 20% loss. All motorized users would be moved to the next day, with the addition of a "Super Day". I never claimed business would move, only the users, guides and non guides. Remove 20% of the opportunity for the guided angler, and now business does have to move or be added, creating the opportunity for more guides. So by adding a drift day you will create more users and less time for the majority the users.

    2) Are you/the guide industry willing that anyone other than 2-stroke owners should pay a price to clean up the Kenai's current mess?

    Your hour suggestion is not reasonable and wouldn't work. Personally, I have the most fuel efficient motor available and have altered some of my activities to reduce my emmisions. I am not fighing the 2-stoke thing with you again. Unless you have different information than the powers at be have it is a dead issue. Drift only days won't do anything, it will actually create more of a problem, crowding all the powerboat users to fewer days.


    3) If the Kenai has an overabundance of guides, it is a condition the guide industry/commercial sportfishing interests have brought on themselves.

    You have a false premise, "overabundance of guides" is subjective, while many think that, it is not necesarily true. Don't only look at guides for the precieved problems, look at your city, borough, B&B's, hotels, airlines, etc....that advertise for tourists to come.

    4) Not the Kenai River nor its owners, Alaskan citizens, owe any guide or the guide industry a living.

    Your right, nor to they owe commercial fishermen a living.

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    Question

    Now, yukon, first you claim that an additional drift day will not decrease motorized use, just shift it to the next day. If that's the case, then there's no net loss of income to a guide. But if an additional drift day would decrease motorized use by guides (and one would assume non-guides as well), then we have decreased motorized abuse of the river and its ecosystem by 20%. You can't have it both ways.

    What's to "fight" about 2-stroke owners being denied fishing during July? If that stands, they are the only people paying a price for a problem created in very large measure by the guide industry. And whether the Kenai has an overabundance of guides is not for me to say—that's just something I've heard from a number of guides.

    Trying to make sense of it all, yukon. Every single time a solution to the Kenai's problems is proposed that might in any way—real or perceived—affect a guide business's bottom line, we hear a thousand reasons why it won't work. From "the sky is falling" to "problem, what problem?" and on and on and on. Is the guide industry, are you, willing to accept any responsibility, pay any price however small, for problems they have helped create?

    Does the guide industry/commercial fishing interests propose any action whatsoever except more fish for them? Sorry, just don't get it. .


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    Marcus, how can I not lose money if I can fish 5 days a week right now and possibly 4 days if a drift day is passes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Marcus, how can I not lose money if I can fish 5 days a week right now and possibly 4 days if a drift day is passes?
    As you note, it will simply move the fishery to "other days"? Too, you can still fish five days, even if one of them is in a drift boat? Nor is this about who makes how much money. This is about doing the right thing—for the river, its ecosystem, one's neighbors, and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    . . it will displace a lot of boats to the other days, and will create another "super Tuesday" effect. . .


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    I can fish a total of 20 people over 5 days, If I can only fish 4 days, then I can only fish 16 people per week, that leaves a group for another guide. The B&B's the hotels, campgrounds etc.....will still have people to fish, most guides do sub-work for B&B's and the such, they will still have clients who want to fish, bottom line, more guides. Is that the goal of the proposal? more guides, more boats,

    Is it the right thing, making the majority of the users go during fewer days, compounding the hydrocarbons? More boats, more crowding for 4 or 5 days of the week, it doesn nothing for crowding, only increasing it. Dragging anchors, bathroom access....

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    Smile The sky is not falling. .

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    I can fish a total of 20 people over 5 days, If I can only fish 4 days, then I can only fish 16 people per week, that leaves a group for another guide. The B&B's the hotels, campgrounds etc.....will still have people to fish, most guides do sub-work for B&B's and the such, they will still have clients who want to fish, bottom line, more guides. Is that the goal of the proposal? more guides, more boats,

    Is it the right thing, making the majority of the users go during fewer days, compounding the hydrocarbons? More boats, more crowding for 4 or 5 days of the week, it doesn nothing for crowding, only increasing it. Dragging anchors, bathroom access....
    This isn't about who makes how much money, yukon. Listen to what you're saying.

    Do you think that when KRSA or KRPGA or any commercial sportfishing interest submits a proposal to BoF that they think for one second what it might cost a set-netter or a drift-netter? About how much harder it might be for a gill-netter to make a living?

    I hope you live long and prosper, but your summer income is not what additional drift day proposals are about. Additional drift days are the right thing to do for the river and much more.

    The sky will not fall if we get another drift day or two.


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    is it just me or does anyone else thing a 21x8' boat should be pushed by at least a 90hp
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Sure PM and everyone should have to eat every single living trout they catch or see.

    Marcus actually I totally see what Yukon is saying. I understand you too. However, Yukon is right in asking how this affects his income just as you are to point out how it affects commercial set/drift fishers. Just as everyone is correct to throw out stats on how much each fishery impacts the economy.

    I do see what you are saying. I think the economics MUST be part of any solution however. Someday it will simply come down to fewer users of the system. I think we can all see that. The means to get there is still debatable. I sit on the sidelines of this issue as I simply walk to where I want to fish. I don't worship big fish (kings) or think I should always limit out. My livelyhood doens't depend on either as well. So it's easy for me and others to say "this or this should be done".

    Like any real problem there are real people involved. I wish there would have been a liscence limitation program a long time ago. People can talk about giving away a public resource to the few all they want. It is one of the few proven management schemes that exists though. Like any business involved with a limited resource there are only so many that can exist. When you throw in the fact that we arent' talking about making widgits it gets even more complicated as I agree with your thoughts (marcus) that the health of the river should be the top priority. I think that ALL users who make a living out of if should be considered as well. Then us sportfishers and the people who depend on us as well. If no LL program ever comes out of this, then it will be a drift only fishery one day. Or time slots for guides or quotas on boat ramp use and boats on water limits. Some of which already exist in one form or another.

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    Smile Moving on. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Akbrownsfan View Post
    . . Someday it will simply come down to fewer users of the system. I think we can all see that. .
    Well said, Brownsfan. While it would be nice if everyone could make all the money they want off Cook Inlet's fisheries—gill netters and guides alike—and that all private and personal use anglers could get all the fish they want when they want them, we all know that can't happen.

    As the area's population grows, residents will demand more access to the resource, and, if the economy holds, nonresidents will as well. Something has to give, and it shouldn't be the river, its ecosystem, one user group over another, or the fish—all of which are already under stress at greater or lesser levels.

    In the meantime, no one's "economic opportunity" should be allowed to compromise what needs to be done. The guide business hasn't fallen apart with one drift day a week, and it won't fall apart if and when another day or two are added.

    We've all contributed to the problem, and we must all be part of a solution. Life goes on. . .


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