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Thread: I support the Rabbit Creek Shooting Park

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up I support the Rabbit Creek Shooting Park

    As members of the shooting public, we are a minority. We can't ever forget the fact that there are many more people who do not shoot, than those of us who do...and the proportional disparity between us appears to be worsening (for us) with time. Some members of the nonshooting public not only don't shoot or own guns, but they also don't want us to shoot either. They don't want to hear us shoot, nor see any evidence in the environment that we have been there before shooting. They are offended and greatly bothered by our shooting behavior.

    Unfortunately, many of the aforementioned are quite vocal and determined to advocate their position through various governmental and political change processes, and they know how to work the system...all too well. I suspect that those who oppose shooting or specifically oppose the Rabbit Creek Shooting Park are popping champagne corks over the ongoing and popular thread complaining about the range. It's great for them, and I can picture a whole bunch of ways it could be used for their purpose. Am I the only one who can picture that thread used against us? Am I the only one who would be VERY bothered by the closing of Rabbit Creek?

    Apparently some of you have had bad experiences at RC, and you're pretty worked up about it. Well...do something about it, but don't shoot yourself (or the rest of us) in the foot trying. Try to change the rules, and let the staff know if they were rude. Talk to the Range Master or RSO when you check out. I think it is generally true that we all would prefer that someone talk directly to us when they have a beef with us, rather than go tell someone else...not to mention blogging it to the internet public. So, let them know what they did or how they did it that offended you. If you find yourself having a repeat bad experience over the same thing, then let them know that you will be calling their supervisor to share your concern if it happens again...and do it if it does.

    In fact, I'll give you an easy opportunity right now to practice going directly to the person. About five years ago, when the volunteer RSO program began at RC, I was one of the first RSO's working at the range. We were all NRA certified. I logged many hours working the line at the centerfire rifle range for the first couple of years (Sundays 10-12), and I was even RSO of the year that first year. I've not worked as an RSO for the past few years because it was cutting into my shooting time, and I figured I had already done my part to support the range. I did work "Sight in Days" this past summer, primarily helping novice shooters and youth sight in their rifles. My name is Chuck. If any of you had a bad experience with me years ago, I never heard about it, but you could still tell me. However, I would prefer that you do it directly...PM me.

    I enjoyed my RSO time on Sunday mornings. I ran a safe centerfire range, and I enjoyed meeting and helping people who also shared my love for rifles and shooting. I think I was very respectful, but maybe I wasn't...nobody told me otherwise. Some good people followed me as RSO volunteers. The ones that I know would also be receptive of your feedback as long as you were respectful. Of course, talking directly to people can be hard, and some people just can't do it.

    Anyway, I guess I'm out of ammo on this topic, and I want to head out to the gun show at Wasilla High School.

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    Default Good post

    Points well taken. While I wouldn't be too concerned about the anti-gunners using these threads "against" us (what could they possibly do with them?), I do think it fosters an attitude against the range, which could lead to more folks not going, and lower turnout could end up shutting the range down in the end. Better to deal with the problem RSO(s) and "fix" the problem so more people will feel comfortable going there.
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    Default

    It's a nice thought, but I went directly to the range master on all occasions that I had problems and was not even remotely satisfied by the replies I recieved. In fact it was the range master that is the main problem in my opinion. See my most recent post in the other RCR thread, it is incredibly long but lines out why alot of people have a problem with it. As far as using a couple of old men *****ing about the management of a range being used to close it down, it stinks a bit too much of a reverse psychology way to shut us up. This forum is to talk about things related to shooting, and the range master driving the RCR into the ground is a topic related to shooting. I and many others I have seen and talked to in person no longer go to the RCR because of the way we were treated, I am in no way undermining shooting itself or giving the anti's any ammo to use. Read post 62 of the other thread then talk to me again. You go directly to the problem person is a nice thought and I tried it at every opportunity with no satisfaction. That post is also going to the powers that be for review, since I gave my main problem issue person ample time to correct the situation.

    Respectfully
    AKF

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    Smile

    AKF, take a look at your personal messages...I PM'ed you about your post on the other thread...also note that my PM to you preceded your post on this thread.

    I admire the fact that you spoke directly to the range master, and, since that didn't help, you are now going to take it further up the chain of command. I say right on, and I also say keep at it until you feel that it is being appropriately addressed. That's how change occurs. I have not personally observed a situation that you described at Rabbit Creek, but I believe you...just like I believe RC is a good range with many good people who use it and help make it available to the shooting public.

    I'm hopeful that your situation will be worked out to your satisfaction. I'd welcome the opportunity to shoot from the bench next to yours. I enjoy seeing dads with their sons at the range. It reminds me of years ago when I first taught my daughter and son to shoot at Rabbit Creek.

    Best of luck to you

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    Default So what IS your point?

    Doc:

    So, we should all put up with this crap because, we are a minority, and if we don't, the RC range might be closed.

    A solution like that, could only come from someone who is part of the problem.

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    Default

    I would also question the validity of saying that there are more anti shooting than there are shooting friendly public. At least when we are talking about the areas surrounding the RCR. I would venture a guess that around RCR you would have a higher percentage of gun owners than non gun owners. You would also have even more that did not own that were not anti to shooting.

    The problem here is that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. The people in charge of RCR have to be willing to tell a certain extreme minority of the public "We respect your opinion, but we will maintain current rules. I work in the public sector and if we turned tail and ran (changed our rules) every time we got a few complaints, no one would know what to do because the rules would change every day. Of course the neighbors are going to complain, just like the neighbors of the coastal trail complained when it went in, or the neighbors of the airport complain about noise. (I still can't believe that our government will buy new sound proof windows for people who knowingly bought or built a house next to the airport, or move entire villages that planted themselves on the inside crook of a meandering river....at taxpayer expense) Did you know that FD and PD regularly get complaints about firefighters and police officers shopping at the grocery store while on duty. If it was run the way you are talking then our public servants on 12 to 24 hour shifts wouldn't be able to grab a bag of salad. Think about how rediculous that is and then think about that there is a part of the public that truly believes that public servants shouldn't be able to eat on duty. There is always angry people who are often times, not even sane. So do we heed every single complaint? Anyway, just an opinion, we all got em.

    AKF

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  7. #7

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    Doc,

    I appreciate your input. I would also like to see RC range remain open. I have taken up any issues that I have had directly with the range officer, but like many other patrons my concerns have only fallen on deaf ears. They are state employees, they really don't care what we think. This is why I have found it necissary to file a complaint with the ADFG. I have put up with these issues for over 20 years at RC range and I think it is time for a change. I will visit the range again in the future and if things don't change, I will continue to file complaints with the Comissioner's office at ADFG.

    I feel that the attitude of the range officers actually discourages non-shooters from getting into shooting activities. They belittle and berate there own customers. I have seen it myself and these types of behavior have been cited on other posts.

    Several years ago I took my wife to RC range to teach her how to shoot pistols. She was offended by the attitude and disrespectful conduct of the cigar smoke blowing range officer. She won't go back to RC because of this. When I asked her why she would not go back to RC range, she told me that she did not feel comforatable in such a hostile environment. The attitude and environment created by the range officers at RC is not conducive to bringing new people into the shooting sports. I feel that things really need to change at RC range if we would like to continue to bring non-shooters into the shooting sports.

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    Default

    I can relate a similar story that involved my dad down at the Snowshoe Gun Club range in Kenai. He saw some cowboy action shooting on TV and thought it would be a fun thing to get into. He bought a couple SA pistols to go with his existing lever and shotguns that would work for this sport. He found out when the next cowboy action shoot was and showed up at the range expecting a day of fun shooting. Instead, he was met with a couple RO's that did nothing but yell at the shooters for every little thing. After shooting his first stage, he started to reholster his gun and the RO screamed at him to "show clear". He'd never been at a range under IPSC-style rules and didn't really know what the RO was talking about. It was all a new experience and he didn't know or was even provided the rules to go along with the event. He politely asked for some help with understanding the range rules, but got none. After the second misstep that was immediately met with more screaming, he packed up his gear and left, never wanting to partake in another "official" cowboy action shoot again.

    He got together with a few of his shooting buddies a couple weeks later, and they started having their own private cowboy action shoots. They built their own targets and such and just go out to shoot and have some fun. It's been a couple years since his bad encounter with nasty RO's and he still has no desire to go back to an official shoot. I've noticed that when they do have cowboy action or IPSC matches at this gun club, that very few people are there. I always wonder how many more people would participate if the RO's weren't running them off with their bad attitudes.
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    Question I think we might be on the same page

    Greetings again AKF. I strongly agree with your position that rules shouldn't be changed everytime a few complaints are voiced, and I appreciate the absurd state of affairs that such a practice could create. I am not at all suggesting otherwise, and it is important to stand strong. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

    My point is that the range at Rabbit Creek is a valuable resource for the shooting public. It is a resource that I think is particularly vulnerable, and I am convinced that it needs our protection. We need to protect it from those in the nonshooting public who would love to see it gone, and we need to protect it from collapsing from within. When you spoke directly to the Range Master about his disrespectful behavior, I see that as an act of protecting the range, and the fact you are taking it further up the chain of command is also an act of protection. Thank you for doing that. Furthermore, those who are unhappy with any of the specific rules of the range, and work to make changes within the system are also protecting the range. Get it on. I am personally going to follow-up on the complaints of disrespectful and condescending behavior by the Range Master (...as I said before, I have not personally witnessed it, but I believe you). I'm also going after getting rid of the 10 rounds in the magazine rule as well (...I don't like that rule or the enforcement demands it places on the RSO's, and I further don't think that it serves the alledged purpose to decrease rapid fire complaints).

    I do not support complaining about things without trying to make changes. I also do not support going around people or outside of a system to make changes without first giving it a good effort to make changes directly with the person or from within the system. I spoke up with this thread to protect the resource, because I felt the other thread about RC was taking on a tone of just leave, don't go there, call you state legislator and senator, etc.

    So, are we that far off AKF?

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    Default Thanks seant & JOAT

    Thanks seant for talking directly with the offending person(s) at the range when their behavior crossed the line for you, and I am glad you are not quitting in your efforts to make change through the chain of command. I appreciate and thank you for your protection of the range.

    JOAT's point is another fine example of why hostile implementation of rules (any rules) can never be an accepted norm. The best way I know to respond to such behavior is speaking directly with the person, and when that doesn't work, take it up the chain of command until it does work...and to do it as many times as necessary to get lasting change.

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    Exclamation RC Volunteer RSO Response w/RC Range Rules Posting

    Hello all. I am a volunteer at RC and have been posting to the other thread as well. I agree with Doc on the points he stipulated, and I also agree with some of the posts here that EVERYONE should be respectful in working with one another to ensure a safe and enjoyable shooting experience at RC.

    I wonder if some of the issue may be educational. One post here indicated that he had taken his wife to RC to learn to shoot and she had a bad experience. I am sorry that was the case. Did the poster help her to familiarize herself with the safe operation and handling of the firearms she was to be trained on and the range commands she should expect to hear, along with appropriate methods of compliance BEFORE taking her to a live range?

    I work with folks on a weekly basis who have just purchased a firearm and have no idea how to operate it, much less load it, shoot it and make it safe again. A little education at home can go a LONG way to making a shooting excursion more enjoyable for new shooters. It is VERY intimidating to be the person on the line who does not know what to do while everyone else seems to be able to comply with the range commands without even having to think about it. There are lots of little things that can make a range excursion less stressful for everyone. Unload and lock open every firearm after EVERY string for instance. This way, when a clear is called, you are ready to go, not trying to unload and clear five pistols at once. The people next to you on the line do not care that your son/daughter/wife, etc. has never shot a pistol. The first time that pistol jams and they turn it sideways to work on it or swing it around to show you, believe me they will let you know they are displeased. Educate BEFORE you put people in harms way.

    As I said in the other thread, the rules and their enforcement at RC are there to protect EVERYONE, including the RSO's. If we see someone do something that puts ANYONE in danger, we are going to react with immediate and forceful commands. I understand that this can be scary for a new shooter. I apologize in advance. Realize that there was an unsafe situation that needed to be remedied, do not take it personally and move on.

    When you sign in at the range house, we request that you FULLY read our Range Rules. Signing the log stipulates that you have read, understood and agree to comply with those rules. If you get to the line and proceed to completely ignore the rules, we (the shooting public) have to wonder why you are unable to comply. You should tell the RSO in the range house if you do not understand the rules and ask if they could help you. I personally would be happy to assist a non-native speaker in understanding the rules to the best of my ability, and I think most of the RSO's would too. If you simply never planned to obey the rules in the first place, well, I do not know how to respond to that.

    I am now going to post the RC range rules in this forum (as well as the other RC thread) for discussion. I am certain this will be both interesting and frustrating to some forum members. Lets try to be civil about it, OK. We do not need personal attacks on members. No "if you are not part of the solution..." garbage. Thank you.

    <<<BEGIN>>>

    RABBIT CREEK RANGE RULES - SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE

    1. When the order to “cease fire” is given, immediately remove all ammunition from your firearm(s) (both chamber and magazine) and place it on your bench with the muzzle pointed down range. Next, gather everything from your bench that you will need during the cease fire (targets, staple guns, clips, ammo etc.) then stand back from your bench. Once you are cleared to go downrange, do not approach your bench or touch anything on it until the “clear to fire” command is given.

    2. Everyone must correctly wear both eye and ear protection at all times.

    3. Do not carry any firearm(s) onto or away from the firing line during a cease fire. (Firearms may be touched only during live fire!)

    4. Any command issued by the range operator must be obeyed immediately.

    5. Look beyond your target before firing. People or animals may be downrange.

    6. Keep the muzzle of your firearm pointed in a safe direction. This means downrange when on the firing line or pointed upward when moving to or from the firing line.

    7. Semi and fully automatic rifles will be fired on the outside benches or on the four right hand benches under the cover ONLY.

    8. All shotguns being shot on the rifle range will utilize slugs ONLY.

    9. All magazines will be loaded with no more than ten rounds (this applies to all ranges).

    These are the current Rabbit Creek Shooting Park safety rules as of 1/18/2008 and are subject to change without notice.

    GENERAL RANGE POLICIES AND PROCEDURES - SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME

    A. You and your group will be refused admission if we, AT OUR SOLE DISCRETION, believe you, or any member of your group are under the influence of alcohol (even one drink) or any drug, prescription or otherwise, regardless of perceived impairment.

    B. Shoot only at paper targets on the frames. One target frame is allowed per bench. No target may bear the clearly distinguishable likeness of any person or persons.

    C. Personal Metal targets may be used only with prior permission from the Range Manager. (30 yard minimum range).

    D. No holster draw or trick shooting is permitted on the open ranges.

    E. When teaching anyone to shoot, only one round may be loaded at a time.

    F. Loud or abusive language is not permitted.

    G. Pets must remain in your vehicle and are not allowed on the firing line. An exception may be made for service animals on a case by case basis by the Range Manager.

    H. If your firearm malfunctions, wait 30 seconds with the muzzle pointed downrange, then open the action. If the malfunction cannot be corrected immediately, ask the RSO on duty for assistance. If we can not assist you, whenever possible, we will help you safely and securely remove the firearm from the range.

    I. Clean up all trash around your firing position when you finish shooting and place it in the appropriate trash receptacles located throughout the Park. Please leave benches in a tidy state for the next shooter.

    J. Do not remove any brass, targets or shotgun hulls out of the trash barrels. Do not collect lead from the ranges.

    K. Rapid or full automatic fire must be done in short bursts an in a safe manner with permission from the Range Manager and only if not objectionable to other shooters.

    L. If using a muzzleloader, you must establish a loading station well behind the firing line. No containers of blackpowder or a blackpowder substitute are allowed on shooting benches.

    M. You will be asked to leave the range if you do not obey the range rules, are using what we consider to be an unsafe firearm or are not conducting yourself in a safe, sportsmanlike manner.

    N. No tracers or incendiary ammunition are allowed unless permitted by the range operator.

    When you sign in at the Rabbit Creek Shooting Park you are acknowledging that you have read, understood and will comply with all range rules. You also will be responsible for your actions and firearms and will be shooting or observing at your own risk.

    <<<END>>>

    OK, there they are. If you have specific comments or concerns about ANY of these rules, please feel free to voice them here or directly to the Range operators. Please provide reasonable SUPPORT for suggested changes. Just saying "I should be able to shoot full auto double drum belt fed anytime I darn well please" is not support (no, I do not know if such a weapon system exists... You get my point). Keep in mind that RC is primarily an educational facility and changes that promote that aspect of our mission will be looked upon quite favorably by everyone involved at the range. Hope to hear lots of feedback from folks here, as it is YOU, the shooting public, whom the range is trying to serve.

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    Default A couple suggestions

    Thanks for posting the complete rules and asking for feedback on them. After carefully following this topic and with input from both sides, I find this list of rules to be fairly reasonable. There are only 3 items that raise a question with me.

    Rule #9 on 10-round limit. As this was the focus of some of the complaints by shooters and you've explained why the rule was put in place, I have a suggestion here. The range wants to limit "rapid fire" and they limited magazine capacity to try and get there. Naturally, these are two different issues. A guy can still shoot 10 rounds in "rapid fire", which is the action you want to prevent, while another guy can put a 100 round drum on his AR and shoot singles or controlled pairs all afternoon without causing the "rapid fire" problem. And it is quite impossible for an RSO to know how many rounds are in the large magazines anyhow, limiting your ability to enforce such a rule if you're still allowing large capacity mags to be used. So, instead of limiting the magazine capacity, why not just make your rule limit the actual activity you are targeting? Here you go, "9. When shooting semi-automatic firearms, rapid shooting must be limited to no more than three rounds at a time with a notable pause between groups."

    Rule D on holster drawing. The proper way to carry a pistol is in a holster. This doesn't matter if it is a sub-compact CCW, OC duty holster, or a bear-protection holster while hunting. Not allowing shooters to practice drawing the gun from the holster is handicapping them in the real world where speed may be very important. For safety reasons, it is warranted to limit the types of holsters being used, but you should still allow holster use. So, try this wording, "D. No exhibition or trick shooting is permitted on the open ranges. Holsters must be specifically approved by the Range Manager prior to any draw and shoot practice."

    Rule E on teaching shooters. I would suggest a bit more description on this. One could be teaching a seasoned and very safe shooter something with a new gun. Are you limiting that guy from loading more than 1 round? If I understand correctly, you're talking about a brand new shooter with no experience, but this rule is written in a very restrictive way that will affect many people at which it's not targeting. It could be a little bit more descriptive of the activity you're looking at.

    I've always found that when users understand the REASON for a specific rule, they are much more likely to follow it and the intent. Simply telling someone "you cannot load more than 10 rounds" doesn't really address or fix the problem. The shooter doesn't know why you're telling him this and therefore you haven't solved the problem of limiting rapid fire, which is what the range was really trying to address. See what I'm talking about? A number of the rules could be a little more descriptive so as to include the intent of the rule.

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    Thumbs up Outstanding

    Some good ideas JOAT.

    Thanks for taking the time to consider alternatives. The next step is to submit your suggestions for consideration, which is what I'm doing tomorrow. I'll be sending my ideas to the Range Master, AND I am concurrently submitting my suggestions to the head of hunter education at the ADFG.

    BTW, I'm also making suggestions about the 10 round magazine rule, as well as suggesting that the range implement a clearly posted, on-site system for patron feedback directly to the head of hunter education concerning experiences (good and bad) at the range, and I'm suggesting some customer service training for all who work at the range.

  14. #14

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    Nice to see some positive dialog occur on the subject.

    One suggestion I will make as I have had an issue in the past with it. The loud speakers used for range commands need to all be operating correctly. If one is not operational it is easy for those of us who are hearing impaired to miss a command while in the middle of a string of fire.

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    No offense intended, but you guys are completely missing the point. It's not about the rules it's about the way people are treated when rules are violated or in questions. If you read that guys post, he said his wife feel it was HOSTILE. Not that it was scary or intimidating, but HOSTILE. I have been shooting my whole life and have been to 100 different shooting ranges in 10 different states, and I agree with his wife. I am not scared or intimidated, but the times I have had issues, the people who are addressing them are absolute jerks. I have not experienced that at other ranges, only RCR. So read my post in the other thread, number 62, and once again QUIT QUOTING ME RULES WHEN I'M TALKING ABOUT ATTITUDE!

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    Default

    AKF, relax dude, we DO understand and no points were missed. We've got two separate issues that are being discussed in these threads. The attitude issue has been pretty well covered... several times now. Everyone has agreed with you on that problem and advice for dealing with it has already been posted... several times. We now have an RSO from that range who has posted the official rules and the discussion has drifted over to talk about them. It's a different discussion, and this is actually a different thread. So, please allow us to discuss the rules that have been posted. Thanks.
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    Good idea plummer...my hearing is on the way out as well...too much shooting over the years!

    AKF, I'm not sure what to say to you at this point, sir. I feel that I have been very respectful to you...really. I sent you a PM expressing my empathy for the bad experience you had with your son at the range, as well as giving you the name of someone within the administration that you could contact. I have also agreed with you that rude and disrespectful behavior can not be accepted, and I expressed my plans to make changes within the system. Unfortunately, all I have seen come back is negativity...even insults directed towards me in particular (e.g., you suggested that my comments, "...stink of reverse psychology"). Consequently, from this point forward I'm choosing to simply wish you well, and call it done. I hope you find the resolution you seek.

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    JOAT:
    Like AKF, I want to be respectful, but also, like AKF, I think the real issue is their attitude, without which, the ridiculous rules wouldn’t be there in the first place.

    I doubt if you’ll get much meaningful discussion about the rules. We know what they are, and we know, they’re too restrictive, and there is little chance they will change, after you discuss them.

    You can talk to this guy, (a volunteer who doesn’t admit there’s a problem), till you’re blue in the face, but I’d like to see someone of your talent, focus on something that has some chance of changing things.

    What is the advice you speak of? The RSOs should treat people like human beings? Do you really think they’re going to do that, voluntarily? As for filing complaints, that’s good, but I doubt that will change them either.

    I’d love to see someone standing out there with a petition, asking people coming and going to sign it.

    Maybe the force of numbers would get their attention.

    I don't mean to cramp your style, and I certainly appreciate the shootin advice you’ve given me in the past. This is really an important issue to many of us.

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    Joat, I respectfully disagree. They are now and have continuously missed the point. I see you live in soldotna, I am unsure how often you go the RCR. It could be every day, I don't know. I live less than a mile from there and am very familiar with the rules and the personnel. I know about 50 people who will no longer go to the RCR. Not a single one of them stopped going because of the rules, they all stopped going becuase they were treated badly by the management with the worst offender being the actual Range Master. I have been repeatedly insulted at the RCR over the years and every single time that I have addressed it with them they minimize the issue by diversion and quoting rules. Such as with Seant’s post, the RSO did the same thing he would have done at the range. He indirectly insulted the man and his wife. His reply basically said that maybe if Seant had properly prepared his wife BEFORE going to the range then it would be a problem. So instead of saying, sure they could have treated her like crap, he blames seant for the problem. Same reply that I always got when I addressed issues. So until one of these RSOs hits the issue head on and states "Yeah, our range master is a Jerk and treats people like crap and we are going to talk to him about it." Then my point stands and they are going to continue to lose paying clients that are experienced long time Alaskan shooters. So I once again state that, no, the issues have not been addressed and yes, they are missing the point. And as far as you discussing the rules, nobody is keeping you from doing such, and until you have had the same crap spewed at you for years as I have, then lay of the "Relax Dude

    Joat, I am not actually worked up to the point of needing to relax, I just typed it that way I guess. Secondary to that, if you look at this thread and the other one, there are almost 100 posts and few if any say they are happy with RCR and how they were treated there. So you might rethink the thing about the attitude issue being addressed. Cause I believe it is being minimized by the RCR personnel here, the same as it is at the range.

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska, United States
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    Doc,
    I never saw your PMs, I will check it now, it doesn't always update new stuff for some reason. As far as my negativity, it is a negative issue we are talking about, hence the negativity. As for insulting you, you fail to see that by replying with the same party line as those insulting us at the range, you are lumping yourself in with them. Also, you insult our intelligence by starting a thread that basically tells us to shut up or we might shut down the range by our negativity. And all the things I wrote above that you are apparently offended by, was a reply to inilsson's post that once again, posted the party line. And just FYI, it is not one, or two, or three issues, I have had. I went there for years and was always treated in a way that left a bad taste in my mouth. And if you look at these threads, so was everyone else. I played the game, went up the chain of command and was unsatisfied by the response. You appear to have created this thread as a way to shut people up from discussing the problems with RCR, I go the other way and say that the only reason these items will be addressed is because of vocal people like me. It's become obvious that I can talk up the chain of command till I'm blue in the face, but the only way to get any change is if we have a more unified voice, which is coming from this forum. So I hope you understand that I intend no disrespect, and I can appreciate that you are one of the few people to side with RCR. But don't think that just because I disagree with you and post that here, that I haven't followed the proper procedures for complaints.

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