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Thread: Fbks Advisory Committee

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    Default Fbks Advisory Committee

    I was at the meeting last night (1/10/2008) along with the other 100+ locals who turned out. We got 5 new people in on the board. LOTS of folks around here, Nenana, etc. are very concerned about the cow moose hunt. It was evident by the number of people who showed up to nominate new members and vote.
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    Changes to the board yes, but it seemed all they cared about was the cow moose issue. Seemed more like road service area managers. They take the job to work issues related to the area they live in. Then when all the work gets done (that benifets them) they quite. Cow Moose is not the only issue that should be addressed.

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    Well, maybe it's a start. Sometimes it takes an issue that hits close to home to wake one up to other issues.
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    Other issues were already in the making. Several members of the commitee had already been talking about not supporting this hunt again. Some of them got voted off the commitee, they were on your side. We were also looking at differant ways to address the other problems over in 20-A. Not just the antlerless hunt, but other issues, such as the trail degradation, habitat, and access. Also getting the antler restriction removed.

    What you have done in your blind attempt to get your one agenda pushed across, was to remove the most knowledgable person on all of the important issues to you and everyone else. A few short sided individuals, pushing a blind mob of sheep. That is what was seen last night.

    Why haven't any of these sheep been attending the other meetings in the last three years. They only care about their own little agenda, that is appearant. Why were none of the locals there to bring forth objections last year, or the year before that? It took a while for someone to work all you up over this one issue.
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    I also heard about the large crowd that showed up for the meeting and voted in 5 new committee members. Most folks I've talked to no longer support the antlerless moose hunt in 20-A. They feel that their voices have fallen upon deaf ears and that many of the committee members are going to try and reauthorize the antlerless hunt once again.

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    No, we have been listening. We heard them loud and clear. All we had said was that we wanted to see the science. Don Young was going to have to prove to us that it needed to be continued. But some of us were already having doubts, just because of public sentiment.

    But passing around a list with five names on it and telling people who to vote for was not a very a reptuable thing to do. How many people voted that way just because of intimidation.

    Was this a fair election?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graybeard View Post
    No, we have been listening. We heard them loud and clear. All we had said was that we wanted to see the science. Don Young was going to have to prove to us that it needed to be continued. But some of us were already having doubts, just because of public sentiment.

    But passing around a list with five names on it and telling people who to vote for was not a very a reptuable thing to do. How many people voted that way just because of intimidation.

    Was this a fair election?
    Your right

    Trying to find out what these new wanna be com members stood for or what thier views are was impossible to find. All there was in my eyes was a bunch of locals wanting the cow hunts stoped, Like I said before, just like Area Road Service presidents, get what they want for thier area and book

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    Default Graybeard

    This exact thing had happened on the Anc AC a few years ago. It was spearheaded by one individual who no longer sits on the AC.

    Could one of you post who the people were that got Elected and the ones that lost? This kind of house stacking has been going on for years. Will probably continue for years as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graybeard View Post
    Other issues were already in the making. Several members of the commitee had already been talking about not supporting this hunt again. Some of them got voted off the commitee, they were on your side. We were also looking at differant ways to address the other problems over in 20-A. Not just the antlerless hunt, but other issues, such as the trail degradation, habitat, and access. Also getting the antler restriction removed.

    What you have done in your blind attempt to get your one agenda pushed across, was to remove the most knowledgable person on all of the important issues to you and everyone else. A few short sided individuals, pushing a blind mob of sheep. That is what was seen last night.

    Why haven't any of these sheep been attending the other meetings in the last three years. They only care about their own little agenda, that is appearant. Why were none of the locals there to bring forth objections last year, or the year before that? It took a while for someone to work all you up over this one issue.
    Easy there pardner... I have no agenda or "side" as you imply. I was merely stating the we have 5 new people on the board now and that there was a big turnout and that a lot of locals are concerned about the antlerless hunt. I'm not your enemy! Nor am I anyones sheep nor am I a "short sided individual pushing a mob of blind sheep"

    I'm no stranger to cow/doe hunts being born and raised in western Montana. However, here I see many long time residents here who practically have a heart attack if you even mention killing a cow. I understand herds get big, browse goes down, studies are done and killing some of the herd needs to be done. But I also understand that if most of them are being killed in relatively small areas or if the counting is not accurate then we can have problems. The impression a lot of folks have had from the AC was that they came across as the "high and mighty" authority and didn't really want to hear anything form anyone else. I think you have proved that point to be true by your post here. Well, some concerned citizens showed up and did something about it. By your tone and attitude it sounds to me like it should have been done years ago. Sounds like the "good ol boy" club to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graybeard View Post
    No, we have been listening. We heard them loud and clear. All we had said was that we wanted to see the science. Don Young was going to have to prove to us that it needed to be continued. But some of us were already having doubts, just because of public sentiment.

    But passing around a list with five names on it and telling people who to vote for was not a very a reptuable thing to do. How many people voted that way just because of intimidation.

    Was this a fair election?
    It was very obvious that people did not vote out of intimidation but rather organization. Some citizens got organized, showed up and voiced their opinions through their right to vote. Was it a fair election? That's a silly question. It was open to the public, done in a public forum and was run by the AC board according to AC election rules. Anyone had the right to nominate and vote for anyone they pleased. Sounds fair to me, maybe those on the board who were up for reelection should have done the same.
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    Sorry Snyd but I'd have to disagree. When you get a bunch of like minded people on a committee, they push thier agenda - the value of the AC goes down.

    In the AC regs - I believe its suggested that representatives come from all facets of outdoor activities (yes even the dreaded Greenies ) so that equal representation is achieved.

    Furthermore at least with the Anc AC, some of the people that were elected in this same manner never even bothered to show up to another meeting. SO I'd have to question exactly what did it accomplish to boot people that would show up and represent the "constituency" and add value to the process vs getting a few of a "New good ole boys" club elected that never made a single voice known.

    The passing out of materials with peoples names on it at the meeting is wrong in my opinion. I think State Law says "200 feet" from any entrance to a polling area or something like that, so if the people passing out those little "vote for only these people cards" were 200 feet away I guess I'd be ok with it. I wouldnt like it, but at least it would follow common Alaska State Voting Laws.

    Besides that - be it good or bad losing people that have historical knowedlge of how things got the way they are, and why they got there is nice. I'm not saying that all those people should remain on the AC, but to give them the boot and lose all that knowledge in an underhanded kind of way is sad. Especially if they are being "removed" because they hold a different viewpoint that the others. There is nothing wrong with at least hearing thier side of an issue before you call the question to vote during the meeting.

    In Anc - that giant crowd usually disperses immediately after the vote. Leaving only a few people in attendance. If you want them to stay, push the election to the end of the meeting and go over about 100 Proposals line by line first and let them see how you interact first. Maybe a few people woudl change thier minds, but most would either be asleep or get up and leave if they had to invest a few hours in a committee meeting.

    Oh well Food for thought.

    Are Bud Burris and Mike Tinker still on the committee at least?

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    Cutter: No Bud Burris, was voted off, as was Mike Kramer, and Larry Kappel. Mike Tinker is still on the committee. Ray Hauer, and Skip Olsen were not seeking reelection.

    SNYD: The root of the problem is not the killing of cows. It is the "Not in my back yard" attitude. The killing of cows is the thing they are using to make it look justifiable, and to gain support. This group was made up of property owners that own property on the Salcha, and Wood rivers, and their friends. The main organizer has been there before many times, really upset about anything that causes more traffic on the Salcha river, his back yard. Like when the Dept increased the Caribou quotas for the middle zone of the 40 mile herd. That's the upper Salcha area. He was really upset about the added boat traffic on the river. He does everything possiable to keep people out of his back yard. He's got a good thing there and does not want to share.

    As for sides, the people Wednesday night made it plain they were taking sides against the Advisory Committee. And if you were a member of that group, you were taking sides. Their agenda was to get rid of the current people on the committee, and replace them with people of their choosing. Did you ever wonder who chose those particuler people? There were many people in attendence Wednesday night that I know, they would not look me in the face. They avoided me when I was moving around before the meeting, and would not talk to me as usual, but moved away plainly avoiding me. Were they afraid that I might be one of the ones they were told to vote against? It was also said this group intended to do this again next year, and the year after, till their people were on the committee. That says they want to control the committee. It's just wrong for one user group to control something so vital to everyone in the community. The members of this group did not bother to find out the views, or feeling of the people they were voting off. They did not ask how these people intended to vote this time, on the issues. They did not sit down and talk like reasonable people. They took someone elses word for how the committee members were going to vote. They responded as told, and voted as told, just like the sheep they are. The hostile attatude displayed by two individuals when their members were not seated Wednesday night immediately, and that they were not able to force a vote on the Anterless hunt, told of their sole agenda. Also after the vote, as usual, the carring public left, not to be bothered with the rest of the boring meeting. That shows they were only there at the urging of some one else. If the public really cared, why is the normal attendence approximately three to five members of the general public at the reguler monthly meetings, when all the information used to make decisions is being passed out. Those three to five members are always the same people, with one that is at every meeting. In fact that one has not missed a meeting since I have been involved with the Advisory Committee. Too bad the people attending Wednesday night has not been attending regulerly, they would have some real insight in to the issues and what is going on.
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    Graybeard,
    I see your points and it's good to get your view. A couple times during that meeting I wanted to tell a couple of those guys you are referring too to sit down and shut up. At the same time I can understand the passion they have. They feel strongly about the issue at hand and that's fine. They have that right. But, things need to be conducted decently. I can see how this may appear as a "hostile takeover". I guess we'll see how it all pans out. Hopefully all can agree that we all want a healthy moose population and that the "struggle for power" to gain control by a select few (current AC members or new ones) will only cause problems.

    I am and have been looking into the moose issue as well as becoming more involved in game management issues as a whole. I am one of those guys who got woke up by this moose issue, our current sheep hunting problems and more, and am choosing to become more involved. Hopefully, the same will happen with others who have been "sleeping" and you will see more than 3-5 members at future meetings. We don't want our game managed by a select few property owners nor do we want to make major decisions based on questionable science (speaking in general terms here). I am not opposed to cow hunts just because they are cows. Since this hunt started a few years ago I have heard many oppose the hunts ONLY for that reason, just because they are cows. Uneducated knee jerk response if you ask me. I have also spent some time talking to Roy about this. I know him from another organization we are involved in. He is very convinced that the science is sound. Others disagree. I intend to keep looking, I have no special interest in mind and do not support any special interest group. At least intentionally

    I'll be at the moose management meeting tomorrow and as time goes by wouldn't mind talking with you more about our game management issues. shoot me a pm sometime.

    BTW, how do I recognize you at the meeting tomorrow? I'll introduce myself.

    Perry
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    SNYD: I'm the guy on the committee with the graybeard. As for me I originally was opposed to Cow Hunting, but I was not on the committee then. I listened to Don's figures and was still not convinced. At the time I was not liking what was going on over on the Rex Trail. We were seeing an influx of new people from the Kenai, and the Valley (Wasillia, Palmer). Then the Cow hunts started and we were suddenly inundated with Anchorage people and big tired rigs. Those rigs were tearing up the trail, that got me even more upset. I attended the Committee meetings with the Nenana area folks as well since I had a stake in that area. Mike Pearson and I had many talks about what was happening.

    I went to all th committee meetings, and heard all the information being given by Don, as well as the concerns of the committee members. Don Young had to convince several members that the cow hunt was needed. I was there and heard all the information. Since I go over into the Rex Trail area every spring in March and spend two weeks over there riding around with my son and his buddy or with friends from Anchorage I realized the evidence Don was presenting was correct. I remember seeing the clubbed willows with very little above the snow line. And the old cows with no calves, and seldon seeing calves, just cows and bulls. I realized the evidence Don was presenting was correct in that aspect, but I still did not like what was happening to my hunting area. See I too had the same feelings, I had been hunting in this area for over 30 years.

    I talked to Mike Tinker and several other people and realized times are changing. With the restrictions being implamented down south the folks down there are looking for a new place to hunt, and here they come. I don't like it but they do have the same rights to hunt this area as I do. They know about it and there is no way to stop them from coming up here. And the cow hunt was a big draw. My concern then was that all the hunting was being done along the Rex trail. I spent the entire season at the cabin on the second river with Mike Pearson and saw most hunters were riding the trail and not getting anything, they were becoming very discouraged and swearing they would not be coming back. That made me feel good. I also realized on my many walks up and down the trail that the Moose were still there just not showing themselves.

    Last year I got reelected to the committee. I felt that we should back off for a year and reevaluate the situation. Then last spring I went over and spent two weeks just riding around and checking on the Moose numbers in the area on my own. I wanted to see things first hand. What I saw was exactly what Don Young said I would see. I saw lots of Moose, spooky Moose, but lots of them. I now saw cows with calves, and in most cases twins. I no longer saw the barren cows. I saw large numbers of bulls, in groups, and loners. My own investigation led me to finally believe Don Young's data is correct. BUT

    I still don't like what has happened to the area, (and a little voice in the back of my head is screaming "My area") but the cow hunt is not really the problem there. Even if the cow hunt was to be stopped it is too late, the folks from Anchorage, the Valley, and the Kenai, already know this area has Moose, lots of Moose, and we can not stop them from coming up here. Its a problem with our growing population. We can't stop it. I don't like it, just as no one else does, but it is here to stay and we are stuck with it.

    Our problem now is how to regulate what is happening. How to redirect some of these folks out into other areas. Not to have them focus on just one area. We also have to start looking at ways to drastically increase the numbers of Moose not just in our little area, but in the other areas around us. The White mountains, the hills behind Eielson, the headwaters of the Salcha and Chena, everywhere we can grow Moose. We are faced with many big and complex problems that some people just can not come to grips with at this time. And we need to get more people involved, so they can see the big picture, not just their back yard. Because what is happening outside their back yard, is affecting their back yard.

    Sorry for the rant folks, but if some of you know how I feel maybe you can understand where I am coming from. I can not speak for the other committee members, they have to speak for themselves. But I will say, we do not want to do anything to hurt our community, or the folks here. We live here too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graybeard View Post
    ...We are faced with many big and complex problems that some people just can not come to grips with at this time. And we need to get more people involved, so they can see the big picture, not just their back yard. Because what is happening outside their back yard, is affecting their back yard....
    I agree whole heartily, and thanks for sharing more of where you are coming from. Some have suggested that opening up some of the haul road north of the bridge a ways for atv access would give other places for the average moose hunter to go. Also, I think that after the Boundry and Wolf Creek fires up the Steese and Chena Hotsprings a few years ago ended up opening up more area for access, both with new trails and being able to see and bust brush where you couldn't before. It would be great if we could get Doyon to sell or issue permits for hunters also. It would open up more area that is already otherwise accessible. Just a few thoughts.


    When I first heard of the cow hunt my initial reaction was, "hmm, must be a overpopulation of moose out there". I think that may be because of my background in Montana, it is not out of the ordinary. Heck, the first week of the 4 week deer season allows hunters to kill does. It's just another game management tool to help keep the deer population in check. Plus in some areas you can get multiple doe tags. The same is done to an extent for Elk in other areas. It works if done properly. After all, these Moose are just big deer. One problem I see is a blanket attitude of "this is Alaska, we don't do it that way here". Well, sometimes that may be true but other times it's just ignorance. On the other side of the coin is that hunting areas there are much more easily accessible over a large area with logging roads and such so hunters can get spread out more. Here in Alaska access (or rather lack thereof) tends to congregate the hunters and thus could potentially result in over harvesting in those areas.

    Anyways, I'll say hi to you tomorrow.

    Perry
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    Personally, I feel that once the Pebble Mine opens, a road, or railroad will be built to Anchorage. Once that happens, the pressure will be diverted in that direction. But that will be another 8 to 10 years. And by then we will have enough people here in the Fairbanks area we won't notice the differance anyway.
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    Sorry to hear the Bud Burris and Mike Kramer were casualties - they both were very knowledgable, and thier knowledge being gone from the Committee is what I spoke of before.

    As an ex Fairbanks thats sad to hear

    Scott

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    How did the management forum go on Sunday? I was unable to get there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak257 View Post
    How did the management forum go on Sunday? I was unable to get there.
    I also would like to hear how this meeting went.

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    I was there all day. Here's what I think:

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=23855
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