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Thread: Problems with 45-70 crimping!

  1. #1
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Default Problems with 45-70 crimping!

    I just loaded up some 45-70 handloads using 46 grains of IMR 3031 , a CCI 250 mag primer and a 405 grain Remington bullet. These are for a Browning 86 carbine.

    Anyway,,,, I first tried a taper crimp die and it looked good but it allowed the bullet to move back some. So I tried the regular roll crimp and it is making some wrinkles arund the case. So I seated in one step and then rolled crimped alone. It still made some wrinkles. THEN, I tapered crimped and then roll crimped.... It helped some but still has some odd impressions on the case. I loaded them to 2.65 OAL.

    Help!!!!!
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  2. #2

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    Those wrinkles are usually caused by too much roll crimp or missing the canelure. Not sure in your case.

    I am wondering though if your expander ball is too large. Those bullets should be finger tight plus some even without the crimp. Then the roll or taper crimp kinda finishes off the job.

    Anyone else?

  3. #3

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    Everything that was just said, but I add, did you measure and trim the cases after resizing? Straight-wall cases don't stretch nearly as often as bottle-necks do, but it does happen. Plus, most .45-70 cases are quite thin to begin with.
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

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    Yeah, ditto the expander and trim length. The Redding profile crimp die is a tight fitting die sort of a taper crimp then a roll crimp ridge. This fits so tight it keeps the case from bulging. The Lee factory crimp die (I don't know if they make it for the 45-70) actuall has a carbide sizer ring in it and it resizes the loaded neck to press out the wrinkles as it is pulled from the crimp die. Maybe a dab of Botox will help.

    All cases the same length, trim them all to 2.095", a tight fitting expander with a two step to just slightly flare the mouth, and a good profile crimp. You must have a cannelure to crimp into and the max OAL is listed as 2.550". The '86 probably isn't fussy about COAL.
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    I would first back off the expanding plug and make sure you are only expanding the mouth of the case just enough for the base of the bullet to enter.
    I would use unprimed, uncharged cases and crimp in a bullet and try to chamber it. Try adding a little more crimp one step at a time till you are happy the bullet will stay in place without wrinkling the case.
    Tennessee

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    Default Lee Factory Crimp Die

    Try one and you will be impressed. Easy to use and a good price. I tried my first one years ago and now they are a required componet for all of the calibers I reload for.

    Ed

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    Thumbs up Lee Factory Crimp

    Get a Lee Factory Crimp Die.......$10.00

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    I am using Redding 3 set dies and a Lyman Taper crimp die.

    The way these Remington 405 grai bullets are built, 2.62 inch is as short as I could get the OAL.
    Here is a pics of a couple, you can see the wrinkles. Next to it is a factory 300 grain hollow point.
    Last edited by Float Pilot; 01-27-2008 at 16:08.
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    It looks like the one on the left is shorter than the one in the center (right handload) or at least it has less crimp applied. You definately don't want to crimp as part of the seating operation and the cases need to be trimmed to the same length. I'm sure you know all this but that's waht it looks like. Is the taper crimp die wrinkling the cases? I wouldn't think it could do that even if they were of different lengths. A taper crimp has no ridge to catch the case mouth. It really looks like there is some crimp in the die when seating.

    The Redding expander die is a two step expander. The tip should be about .4560"-.4565" and the step up should be about .4595" to .460". Adjust that until the .4560" step just enters the case mouth. This will allow you to start the bullet with finger pressure. On straight cases you should always stick the bullet in the case and it should stay when inverted. This will insure that it starts in the case true when seating. If it tips it can bind and wrinkle one side of the case. The crimp die will then remove this extra flair of the case mouth with minimal wear and tear. The taper crimp will work very well for this flare removal after seating. I just use the taper crimp when loading for a single shot but gennerally use a profile crimp for anything to go into a repeater. I have used the Lee factory crimp die on the 45-70 and many others but have given them all away and gone back to the Redding profile crimper. It is the best I've ever used. There are at least four people on this forum that have got a free Lee factory crimp die from me. I don't like them. (The dies I mean the people are probably ok.)

    Your OAL is probably fine and Speer says to crimp into the upper (closes to the nose)cannelure for the 45-70.
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  10. #10
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    I will try a different setting for the expander ball. The taper crimp that I use for my sharps rifle shooting does not cause any wrinkles. But the sluigs can be moved backwards.
    The Redding crimp does not wrinkle if lightly applied.
    BUT, when I lightly applied it, the bullets could be pushed back into the case because Remington made very shallow cannalures (sp) with a slight band just ahead of the top one.
    So I went back and gave them the full crimp treatment and this is what happened. I am thinking that maybe the Remington bullet was not the way to go for my leverguns. But I have 200 of them here on the bench.
    My buddy wants to load some for his Marlin Guide gun. Now I am wondering if they will cycle.

    Another option would be more case room filled up with powder so the bullet cannot move backwards.
    These 46 gr of 3031 loads are just for goofing around. I figure the magnum primers will make it act like a 47 grain load. Maybe 1400-to 1500 fps.

    Anyone have a pet lever-gun load for the 45-70 that is not a hot load.?
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    Ok, two ways to go here. First off, your case trim length can not be consistent for you to have these problems, and I am talking about a tolerance of + or - .003 here, and yes I know that is really tough to maintain with most any case trimmer but if your loading jacketed bullets with a short canalure then that is about what you got to work with. Ok, so option one is to use the standard roll crimp built into the die, and to do this you need to seat the bullets in one step and then loosen the die and adjust it by feel for each cartridge to crimp them. And this must be done, as I said, by feel and by stroking the ram on your press by feel. If there is too much resistance then you know you are about to crunch the case, too little and you know the crimp is not tight enough. After a couple of rounds you will get the hang of it. Option #2 is to get a lee crimp die, and I know that some folks think they suck, but in my experience, they work GREAT and will be more than happy to reimburse ANYONE the $10 bucks they spent on one that they don’t want. The only caveat is that they are for 375 H&H, 30/30, 35 Rem, 356 win, 375 win, 45/70, 45 colt, 243 Win, 250 Rem, 270 Win, 25-06 or some other “cool round” that I might buy in the future.
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    OH, forgot one thing, if you want a "pet load" that is mild and fills the case, then load her up with black powder or substitute! will pump a 425 gr lead bullet out at about 1000 fps, and I suppose your 405 jacketed bullets would be pretty close to that. the real deal Black powder is actually quite fun in my opinion.........especially if you shoot at rabit creek when there is a slight breeze. lots of fun to watch the other shooter down wind whiping there eyes and coughing after you blast a few rounds down range
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    For Sharps rifles I use a postal style slug and a greased wad for some FFg Goex (since I can't find Swiss powder here) and a taper crimp (why I have a taper crimp die)

    I don't want to shoot Holy Black in my Browning 86.

    I will try not using much expander ball tomorrow,,,
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    Thumbs up Lee Factory Crimp Die

    Looked at the brass.....strongly suggest the Lee Factory Crimp Die.....makes a perfect crimp everytime.......use it on my 44 mag and 45-70

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    I guess I will order a lee Crimp die.

    Get this!!!!

    I did the exact same loading process with Wnchester Brass and they came out just fine. Only the remington Brass had this problem. And they were trimmed to the same length.....

    Insert twighlight Zone music here....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    I guess I will order a lee Crimp die.

    Get this!!!!

    I did the exact same loading process with Wnchester Brass and they came out just fine. Only the remington Brass had this problem. And they were trimmed to the same length.....

    Insert twighlight Zone music here....

    Remington is thicker and softer. You won't have the problem with Starline, either.
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    Murpy is spot on about the Remington brass but I actually prefer it to the Winchester stuff. I have not crunched one since I went to the Lee die.
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

  18. #18
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    I did some more last night with another 20 rounds of Remington brass.
    First I de-primed them with the internal rod from a smaller caliber.
    Then full length resizied without the rod in there.
    This time I barely flared the case mouth with the expander ball.
    I used 38 grains of IMR 4198 just to see what happens.
    I got the slugs started by hand and then seated them to the ring just above the top cannelure.
    Then I used the taper crimp die only.

    They came out nice and the slugs are in there good and tight.

    The brass looks a little discolored, but they had been sitting for a few years and this is as good as they got after a night in the tumbler.
    Last edited by Float Pilot; 01-27-2008 at 16:08.
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