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Thread: I want to make a canoe out of

  1. #1
    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Question I want to make a canoe out of

    Rhino Hide bed liner material.
    Here is my idea... and a little history with this material..
    Last year I had a fellow spray the Keels on 13 of my rental canoes with Bed liner material... this stuff is a two part product that is mixed at the gun nozzle. It is heated to about 185 degrees or so ....as it is being sprayed on. It adheres to almost anything except Lard, or axle grease,,lol
    It is tough,, and I mean tough.. it wears better than Kevlar keel shields that I have used. It does not add much weight at all to the canoe, ( less than a half a pound) looks good and after one season of rental abuse, is still in great shape....
    The fellow that sprayed the stuff for me has a business that sprays Not only bed liners, but with the same spray equipment sprays dense urethene foam for insulation. Most of his work is industrial. ( oil and natural gas to liquid applications)
    We talked about using a canoe mold that I have access to that was used to make Fiberglass canoes... We are going to put a release in the mold and spray one layer of Bed liner material. then spray a layer of urethene insulation. ( the ultra dense stuff ) then spray anouther thin layer of bed liner on top of the foam. this way making a sandwich. For the first canoe, we think we will Not try to make any area any thicker or thinner with either the bed liner material or the Foam.. this way..when it comes out of the mold, we can then see if it will work at all .. and if it is rigid enough, or needs to be built up in certain areas to maintain its shape in normal canoe applications.. then we can decide if the idea has merit or to make a planter out of the canoe, and move on to some other crazy Idea..
    What is your idea??
    anything goes,, including going back in time with materials such as Birchbark, or what ever..
    Max
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

  2. #2

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    I sent you a PM.

  3. #3

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    Keep us posted.

    I could see that you could spray the areas that need extra strength a couple times and then spray the last coat.

    I wonder if it will stick to HDPE, I have a piece that you could try it out on.

    I would be very interested in strength, imbedding steel supports, encasing foam.

    I can see many uses if it stands the test. Let me know.


    Cheers,

  4. #4
    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default I knew a kid...

    ... who made a canoe out of an airplane float when I lived in Ketchikan as a kid. Well, actually it was more of a strange kayak. He never could get it up on step.

    The rhino lining idea sounds really good. Can you incorporate some carbon fiber? What will your mold be made of?

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    Default I want to build a canoe out of Rinohide

    While in High School (Mid 60's) I built a canoe by first making the basic frame which included a full length keel attached to radial cut plywood ends. Then the top rails were formed using 1x1 dimensional lumber. They were fastened to the ends and kept apart with the addition of a couple thwarts. This frame was simply covered with aluminum window screen which gave enough form to hold up the fiberglass until it cured. This was a very lite boat and pre Kevlar, and possibly a step up from bark?

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Default Canoe mold

    Our scout troop has a fiberglass canoe mold that is about 30 years old. We also have a 17 foot kayak mold also..
    We have never used the molds in all of the years I have been involved.
    I think I started in either 1991 or 1990 can't remember..
    anyway.. I talked to the bed liner guy and he said we could use a release similar to or the same as Fiber glass release to put in the mold.. the mold bolts together along the keel line so you can take it apart.
    I think that your idea of carbon fiber for tightening up the flex is a great idea.. for the first one I think we will just make it the same thickness all around.. and then look at it from that point... If I build it up here or there,, I may not know where I can shave off or need to add.. this way.. I will know at least where I need to add....
    It will not be a cheap experiment though.. we figure it will cost about 800 to 1000 bucks for materials alone.. but that is just a guess bases on his experience on something of that foot print..
    Down here where I work, we covered some 5,000 gallon tanks with the urethane insulation, and then sprayed the bed liner ( Rhino hide) type material on the outside of the urethane insulation..
    it is impossible to separate the bed liner from the insulation .. unless you grind it off .. it adhere to each other that well,, it refuses to separate no matter what,, water, cold, heat,, It seems to expand and contract with temps with absolutely no separation..
    we have had these tanks for two years now, with no problems.. other than I had to cut into the material and grind off the stuff so I could apply some heat blankets directly to the metal tank itself..
    the experience to try and remove the stuff made me realize that this stuff is very tough.
    anyway.. we expect the canoe to be pretty ugly on the inside due to the way the foam sprays on.. it does not spray flat.. it is kinda lumpy.. but my friend said we can play with it and see if we can make it look decent..
    anyway.. one other cool thing is that you can make it in any color you want ...
    Max
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Default

    I don't doubt how tuff the insulation and liner combo is, but I do doubt it's ability to flex without losing it's skeletal integrity (like wrapping around a rock). Does the insulation retain any flex? Or is it somewhat brittle when it sets? I think a stiff yet flexible core would be perfect. That is what I would shoot for.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    For expense you might try the prototype with a cheaper bedliner first. I did my Bronco with a cheap duplicolor brush on that was less than $100 (Wal-mart and Napa sell it for under $60/gallon) to cover the whole inside of my Bronco. I think it would be similar enough to let you know how it will work and allow you to get it close to perfect before jumping in. It can be sprayed on or poured in or brushed on.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    Default

    I think if I were dealing with that much money I would start with a 1/10th scale mould and build a proof of concept canoe. That way, if it doesnt work at all, you aint out a pile of cash, and you can still fit it in the garbage can!
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Default great ideas

    I have used that material that you brush on for bed liners. Infact I put a bed liner in a new F 150 just a few weeks ago with the stuff.. it was $100 bucks for the gallon kit...
    As far as flex etc... I am not sure,, but my frustration at trying to tear this stuff off the metal tanks was at about a level 9.. lol
    I used a power saw to cut through the bedliner material and into the insulation down to an inch from the tank,, then used a "Mutt" Ice scraper on a 5 foot poll to try and tear it from the tank... the pieces I cut out were 40 inch's by 30 inch's.. and I was not able to even get it to budge,, I bent the Mutt blade,,, if you can believe that.. those blades are really thick and I almost broke the heavy handle also...
    SO ,, I resorted to using a heavy wedge and a 8 lb sledge hammer...
    still would not budge... then I beat on the surface with a splitting maul...it would not even cut into the material,, It just bounced off.. not even denting the surface ....
    I beat on that material in an attempt to loosen it up so it would pop off the tank.. but no matter how hard I beat on the material,, it showed no signs that I have even attempted to assault it.....
    I finally used the saw to cut a grid in the material of about 8" X 8" sizes..
    I finnally got my bent up mutt blade in deep enough and was able to pop it loose...
    My pounding on the surface of the material with the sledge Hammer and my jabbing it full force with the knife sharp Mutt got me thinking that this was some tough stuff that can handle some serious abuse..
    How it does on a Canoe?????
    ,, Here is a question for all of you...
    Have any of you seen that old footage of those guys that rode a motorcycle from interior Alaska to Canada.. Pre Alcan hwy?? It was made it looks like in the early 1940's probably a few years before the Alcan road was even started....
    There was a young guy and an older guy.. the older guy was the most amazing outdoorsman I ever saw on film.. he used an Axe like it was a pocket knife.. he was so skilled it was just amazing to watch how fast he could make stuff with that Axe.. He built a Canoe on the shores of a river out of Alders and birch saplings,, and then used a canvas tarp for the cover,, they loaded that motorcycle in that canoe and paddle across that river.. then tore the tarp off that canoe frame and headed out.. the whole event took just a short time..
    This guy had crossed many a river before using this tec.. He was a true outdoorsman that used stuff around him to make it all happen..
    I would love to get a copy of that video if any of you know what it was called or where to get it.. I think I saw it years ago on PBS station.
    Max
    Max
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Default funny stuff

    I think if I were dealing with that much money I would start with a 1/10th scale mould and build a proof of concept canoe. That way, if it doesnt work at all, you aint out a pile of cash, and you can still fit it in the garbage can!
    Now that is not only funny,, but so true,,,,,
    If I can make a mold for a little boat,, then that may be the way to go..
    any ideas on how to make a decent mold ??
    Max
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    I too want to get a hold of that video!

    My first step would be to make a sheet a foot wide and a few feet long and the try to break it over my knee and otherwise abuse it. Then you could weigh the material and calculate weight, cost, recalibrate your thicknesses etc...
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    For the proof of concept, why don't you use a sno-bowl, those things you sit on and slide down a hill on. It will provide a curved shape all around and will give you an idea of the strengths and weaknesses of the curves. Plus, it's not too big

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    Sno-bowl for the mold, I mean.

  15. #15

    Default rhino

    I would be curious to see whether the rhino material, or a composite of rhino and insulation would be rigid enough to support the forces applied to a canoe. Seems it would be overly flexible. You might need to add some stiffening members.
    Also, could a smooth finish be attained? Otherwise the resistance would be extreme and you may end up with the slowest canoe on the planet...
    The idea sounds like a good one though!

  16. #16

    Default Would the material have a ruff finish or

    would it be smooth...I was thinkin about drag through the water and on objects...glide ratio....?

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    Moderator AKmud's Avatar
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    It should be smooth....if the mold is smooth. If I am picturing this correctly, the mold is for the outside (boat will be formed on the inside of the mold)?

    For strengthening, I would lay some narrow strips of stiffening material lengthways (bow to stern) in several places before applying the urethane. Kind of like putting rebar in concrete...
    AKmud
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  18. #18

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    frame up the rough shape of the canoe size you want out of wood. Then cover the outside with modeling clay and shape and smooth it out to the design you want. Mix up some release ( a pint jar of toulane and a heaping tablespoon of vasaline mixed up until the vasaline is disovled) and brush it on the clay. Then cover it with a couple coats of fiberglass resin. Then a coat of resin and fiberglass cloth to strength up the mold. Pop the fiberglass shell off and you got yourself a mold.


    toulane from the hardware store
    resin and fiberglass from the autoparts store
    modeling clay from art and crafts store

  19. #19
    Member fshgde's Avatar
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    Default good luck

    I have a bussiness that used to spray bedliner and foam, I just spray paint now. I had every idea floated past me when I did bedliners I did make a canoe skin for a guy who traveled to remote areas to do research. Basically he had a frame with a similar to an allypac with a worn out coated canvas I never heard from him again so not sure how long it lasted. I also tried to make a part for a race car very simalar to what you are trying to do coating and foam it has very little structure it would twist after cooling , or wouldn't release from the mold as foam expands putting preasure on the mold so it won't release. You could try to spray a thin layer of foam on mold build a frame foam it in then get it out of the mold and spray inside and outside with straight polurea takes a little longer to set up and you can spray it very smooth. I sprayed a few boat bottoms with this and it seemed to work ok. then again you could go buy a canoe and spend the time fishing. If you try this let us know how it works.

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    Interesting that you should mention "smooth finish..." or "...slowest boat...". I have a 17' Frontiersman (wt 100 lbs) with a 42" beam. I have patched it a few times and kept the finish smoorh. A couple of years ago, I was about to go on a week long canoe trip down the Teslin River and Yukon River to Carmacks, Yukon and the evening before leaving decided to put a couple of patches on and a coating of resin over the whole bottom. After a cool clear night with dew, I had a new surface on the bottom of the canoe that was completely pock marked. Not having any time to sand it and re coat it, I took it that way it was. I thought it would be hard to paddle and very slow. I had about 1000 lbs loaded in it. To my complete surprise, it moved through the water with ease and we were ahead of the other 3 canoes most of the trip with very little work. The only thing I can think of why is possibly the golf ball effect where the pock marks allow the golf ball to fly further through the air. Any thoughts.

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