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Thread: What is a sheep worth?

  1. #1

    Default What is a sheep worth?

    Sheep are a public resource.
    Guides sell the public resource (12K to 15K); mostly to nonresidents.

    Nonresidents pay $500.00 for the tag; $85.00 for the license.

    A nonresident is REQUIRED (as it is now) to hire a guide.

    A resident can get a transporter to drop them for 3K.

    Many, many of the nonresidents who pay 12-15K would pay $5,000 for a license and a tag, $3,OOO.OO to a transporter and go hunting on his own.

    If the nonresident wanted to hire a guide; let him find one the same way a person would search out a fishing guide; but don't require him too; it is a corrupt system.

    State Regulators are giving away about $5,000.00 every time a nonresident buys a sheep tag.

    Residents standby while Regulators give away our resource and what do we get?

    $585 bucks and Less opportunity with harvest restrictions.


    That is what a sheep is worth?


  2. #2
    Member FALCON's Avatar
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    Default WOW

    What is a sheep worth? Here is my take.

    I live in the so called lower 48. Washington to be exact. I wouldn't exactly call myself a rich Califorain, fat Texan, or old Floridian. Just pretty much a working stiff who at the age of 45 decided to save enough money, get in shape, learn all he could about Dall sheep, and go hunting. I had no problem with the guide law. I think it would be near impossible to think I could fly up to Alaska, get a transporter to take me to his secret sheep haven, and kill a legal ram. Out of all the guys I have talked with who are non residents, I didn't hear any of them complain about having to be guided. Could some get it done on their own ? Sure. But I think the number would be pretty small.

    To all the guys on this board who helped out a rookie sheep hunter, I say this. THANK YOU !!!!

    What is a sheep worth ? All I know is when I had my ram down, it was an emotional moment. I remember grabbing my guide Curtis and giving him a huge hug while I got a little teary eyed.

    What a sheep is worth cannot be valued in dollars.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FALCON View Post
    What a sheep is worth cannot be valued in dollars.
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...989#post181989

    Wow is right; I can appreciate your perspective and I am very happy Alaskans can share our resource with you and if it is at all possible most of us hope others similarly situated as yourself can enjoy the opportunity to.

    I am sure you are understanding then that when the regulators are considering imposing on RESIDENTS a one in four limit, and further restricting our opportunity with more draws we start to think about what your experience; our generosity, cost us.


  4. #4
    Member FALCON's Avatar
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    Default yes

    If you guys get organized and show some muscle, I believe this 1 in 4 crap will be short lived.

    In Washington, we get all kinds of BS proposals thrown at us. It takes people to write letters to the editor, show up at F/G meeting with testimony, and go door to door for God's sake if you have to. I know because I have been there done that.

    You are right. Residents deserve better odds then 1 in 4 if in fact a non resident in theory could hunt any time he wanted. If I had to draw a tag to hunt in Alaska to hunt white sheep, I would understand. I applied for an elk tag in Arizona, and lo and behold, I actually drew that puppy after a couple of years. Yes, I believe residents should be favored. To what extent, I don't know. If you look at the recource, I gotta believe somebody can come up with something that makes sense.

    I doubt I will ever be able to go on a sheep hunt again in Alaska. I will always have a fond memory of the beauty and the good people who helped me out.

    People always make time for things that are important. I have heard about nearly unattended meeting in the past regarding sheep management. That needs to be a wakeup call for the next big meeting.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FALCON View Post
    If you guys get organized and show some muscle, I believe this 1 in 4 crap will be short lived.
    I agree with that.

    [/quote] I gotta believe somebody can come up with something that makes sense.[/quote]

    Give the guides a time out on the "must" be guided rules; require nonresidents to pay a higher tag fee.........if anyone wishes to hire a guide then that's ok, there should be one around to provide the service.

    [/quote] I doubt I will ever be able to go on a sheep hunt again in Alaska. I will always have a fond memory of the beauty and the good people who helped me out.[/quote]

    Glad it worked out for you and hopefully you can.

    [/quote] People always make time for things that are important. I have heard about nearly unattended meeting in the past regarding sheep management. That needs to be a wakeup call for the next big meeting.[/quote]

    The key is what you said in the beginning. We need an organization with muscle and committed to absolutely hold the line on limits and restrictions that filter down to residents. What ever that takes.

    Since it is money and business that is driving the ship..........maybe those who actually own the resource want to think about it from that perspective too.

    Like how much more management effort could we get every time we trade the $585.00 for $5,000.00 by just changing our business practices.

    Appreciate your input friend.


  6. #6
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default You're mistaken, friend

    Avalanche,

    If memory serves, you did this in another thread too. Allow me to clarify once more. Guides don't sell game. In fact, it's illegal to do so. Guides sell an experience. Period.

    Big difference.

    When you say we are selling sheep, moose, caribou, bears, whatever, this is just inflammatory rhetoric that does little to give credibility to your cause. Most of the guides I know are honest, hard-working folks who have two or three other jobs just to make rent payments. In nearly all the cases I personally know of, guides are not getting wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. I have a good friend who is a master guide with over 25 years in the business, and he owns a lodge that he built with his own hands. Seems like he should be sitting pretty, but he's not. He does remodeling work for the entire year except when he can guide.

    He's never sold an animal in his life, nor have I.

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
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    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
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  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    Sheep are a public resource.
    Guides sell the public resource (12K to 15K); mostly to nonresidents.
    Micheal,
    I think you meant Avalanche in regards to comments about selling game didn't you? I have never seen nor heard Falcon say such a thing and the man has been in my home. He's a good guy and it was great to be a small part of his lifetime dream to hunt Dall Sheep Alaska.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again

  8. #8
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Oops! Sorry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    Micheal,
    I think you meant Avalanche in regards to comments about selling game didn't you? I have never seen nor heard Falcon say such a thing and the man has been in my home. He's a good guy and it was great to be a small part of his lifetime dream to hunt Dall Sheep Alaska.
    Snyd,

    Right you are! I just corrected it. Sorry for the misunderstanding-

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

  9. #9
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    snowprob...
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again

  10. #10

    Default Right On!!

    Wow, $12K-$15K per sheep hunt. I need to up my rates. Thanks Avalanche for the tip. I'll get right on it!!
    Yippi, I'm gonna have my wife fartin in silk sheets yet.

  11. #11

    Default Sell the experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    Guides don't sell game. In fact, it's illegal to do so. Guides sell an experience. Period.
    Apparently this thread struck a nerve. I do at least think I understand why it may have upset you guys.

    Residents continue to experience non stop annual regulatory limits being imposed that affect our opportunity to hunt. It has to stop, it can stop, and it is not an unreasonable objective.

    You guys can play with the "whats a sheep worth" numbers; I don't believe them to be absolute.

    People who "take" the resource for economic reasons; for the experience or whatever the justification, naturally feel threatened by any "limits". It is likely narrow minded in the least; selfish and shortsighted too. But "it is what it is". I am just the messenger anyway.

    The last time this statement "Guides sell an experience" was made I let it go. It sounded like THE BULL SYSTEM then and it does now. But of course it isn't!

    An individually licensed BIG GAME COMMERCIAL SERVICES BOARD CERTIFIED HUNTING GUIDE advertises a GUIDED "HUNT" for sale, a client contracts an individually licensed hunting guide and commits to purchase the "hunt" from the guide. Nowhere in the "deal" is there any intention by either party to "take" a public resource in exchange for money. Please dude; give me a break.

    falcon wrote: "Just pretty much a working stiff who at the age of 45 decided to save enough money, get in shape, learn all he could about Dall sheep, and go hunting." "All I know is when I had my ram down, it was an emotional moment."

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    When you say we are selling sheep, moose, caribou, bears, whatever, this is just inflammatory rhetoric that does little to give credibility to your cause.
    The other side of the coin is Mr. Strahan; When you say we are selling "an experience" and expect anyone to believe there is no intent to "sell the publics" sheep, moose, caribou, bears, whatever, this is just inflammatory rhetoric that does little to give credibility to your cause.

    If you understood my cause [hold the line on limits and restrictions that filter down to residents. What ever it takes] Mr. Strahan it is highly unlikely you would have made, and repeated the statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    Guides don't sell game. In fact, it's illegal to do so. Guides sell an experience. Period.
    I will consider amending my statement that upsets you:

    "HUNTING" Guides "take" the public resource............"GAME" VIEWING Guides sell the experience."

    Is that less offensive to you?

    What is a sheep worth?

    How about what is a bear worth?


  12. #12
    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    Default

    ya mtnman, i need to up my rates about 2 grand so i can compete with the rest of the guides...silk sheets..naaa gonna fly south for a few months, guide wages dont' allow me to fly to kenai let alone the south pacific!!

    Avalanche, we've pretty much seen your stand point on alot of these issue as you've been very vocal as of late. BUt on your thought for upping tag fees and dropping the guide requirement, well then we'd need the 1:4 years sheep reg. With out the guides and their fees and the requirement i do belive sheep areas would be come seriously over populated with hunters, which is currently one of the problems already, so drop the guide requirement and make it worse. not sure i really understand, logicly, why you'd want to do that.
    From the theme in the rest of your threads, i can see you'd like to do that just (so it seems) to spite the guide industry.
    But dropping the guide requirement would do little or nothing to solve any of the current issues.
    Www.blackriverhunting.com
    Master guide 212

  13. #13

    Default

    It's public land, I own as much of it as the next person. The animal is on public land. The things of it is, is that the state claims that public land and all that is on it for their very own. Hence why they can charge non residents so much to hunt on it/take from it. I know this, and accept it as law. But---
    Should the resident get cheaper rates and better odds on public lands...Remember, it's just as much my public land as yours. Even if I live in a different state..I just don't live in the state that claims the animals that live on it..
    So why should I have to pay more for using MY public land..Should I have to pay extra to have a Guide, guide me on MY public land...humm?

    Let use for an example Idaho and Montana. I do a lot of hunting on the border next to Salmon Idaho, all public BLM and Nat. forest land. The elk and deer that I hunt don't read the "state line" sign very well. I step across the line and I have to pay an additional 500.00 to take that same deer or elk. Why, it's on public land, my land as well as a Montana residents land. Same deer and same elk which state do they belong to...
    Oh well...just food for thought..

    cane 'just like to start things' maker
    lol..go easy fellows..it's just something to make you go humm...

    canmaker

  14. #14
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    Default

    We all realize that we have too many hunters and not enough game to make us all happy. Why is this?

    I believe the real problem is the mis- management of our recourses by the Department of Fish and Game. It pains me to use the word “Game” with them since they haven’t truly managed game in awhile. If something doesn’t happen to shake up the way this department handle business we are all screwed!

    This department wants to go to an all draw state because it is easier and cheaper to manage people. It would be nice to see where they spend the $90,000 they get off the Governors Tags each year.

    I don’t have the answer to our problems but the more we express our opinions on this forum the closer we get. So keep them coming, I enjoy reading everyone’s posts. Even the ones I disagree with have some merit.

    In a perfect world one would think that all of the outdoor groups could unite and fight as one and make things happen. This will never happen!

    You think the Republicans and Democrats have issues. This is nothing compared to these outdoor groups. You have 40 groups all wanting to save the world, but this desire stops if someone enters their turf. It is really something to see.

  15. #15
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    We all realize that we have too many hunters and not enough game to make us all happy. Why is this?
    Not all of us. As for me, there is plenty of game and not too many hunters, and I am generally very pleased with the job that F&G does. They are severely underfunded and thus unable to carry out the regular population surveys, etc. that are necessary to truly manage game instead of people. They also do not make the laws (the BoG does this). For a department with their hands tied in so many ways, they do an amazingly good job. My hat is off to them.

    And I am a happy hunter.

  16. #16
    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    Default

    I think sheep should be draw only for all with a preference point system and 10% max to non-res.

    The non-res tag should be $1500 with no guide requirement.

    JMHO

    NO 1 IN 4. The preference point draw will take care of that.

  17. #17
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    The other side of the coin is Mr. Strahan; When you say we are selling "an experience" and expect anyone to believe there is no intent to "sell the publics" sheep, moose, caribou, bears, whatever, this is just inflammatory rhetoric that does little to give credibility to your cause.
    Avalanche, you really need to consider the context of these conversations. Have you ever visited Mr. Strahan's website? Have you read his posts here and learned something about the man?

    This past fall he did one guided hunt. That's it. He took out an elderly gentleman on what was likely his last hunt ever, thereby helping this man fulfill what had been a long-held dream of hunting brown bears in Alaska. From what I read, it was a wonderful trip, but at the end of the float they were unsuccessful in harvesting a bear. Nevertheless, the guide and hunter were pleased and found fulfillment in the experience, which is what was sold anyhow.

    Do transporters sell our game? Of course not. They sell transportation which allows a hunter to have significantly higher chance for success. Do guides sell our game? Of course not. They sell the experience, their expertise, and their physical services which allows a hunter to have a significantly higher chance for success.

    Granted, I absolutely abhor some of the grabs for our resources that are being made by some in the guide industry via the BoG process, but not all guides are on board with these proposals. Here on the forums there are some guides who truly do care about the resource above their paycheck, and who do truly care about resident hunters. You seem a little too quick to paint them all with broad brush strokes without knowing who they are.

  18. #18
    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Default

    I'm in complete agreement with Brian and Michael on this one. Hunting and fishing guides don't sell game or fish we sell an experience if it's meat you want go to the grocery store. And never trust a guide who guarantees game or fish. I have an issue with the whole premise of this post, it's not what a sheep is worth you can get mutton at any good butchers shop for what about 7 bucks a pound? The question is whats a sheep hunt worth? for some nonresidents apparently about $15K. For me it's worth a few days away from the family and a long hike up the mountain + harvest tag and licence + time and cost of applying for a few permit draws. Heck I'm headed up the mountain anyway might as well take a rifle or bow, Oh Man sheep with a bow! Anyway might just as well take the gear along for the hike. As too the guide requirement for nonresidents would you rather foot the bill for rescue services to go get them? Given the inherent dangers of sheep hunting I think the guide has more to do with providing a safe hunt.

  19. #19
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    .......
    $585 bucks and Less opportunity with harvest restrictions.


    That is what a sheep is worth?
    I've got a sheep here in my yard. I'll give you a real bargain by selling her to you for $150.

  20. #20

    Default Can not have it both ways any longer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Not all of us. As for me, there is plenty of game and not too many hunters, and I am generally very pleased with the job that F&G does. They are severely underfunded and thus unable to carry out the regular population surveys, etc. that are necessary to truly manage game instead of people.
    Then you do understand that 'FUNDING' is important and would not argue that putting $5000.00 in the management fund every time we sell a sheep to a nonresident would be beneficial to the goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    They also do not make the laws (the BoG does this).
    WRONG..........the people make the laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    For a department with their hands tied in so many ways, they do an amazingly good job. My hat is off to them.
    Are you suggesting that $5000.00 every time a nonresident buys a sheep tag is NOT "untying" the hands of fish and game. Would "they" tip their hats to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    I am a happy hunter.
    Question for you; as a happy hunter

    A) are you not concerned with OR
    B) are you not affected by the annual introduction of additional regulatory limits.


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