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Thread: Big Game Commercial Services Board

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    Member anonymous1's Avatar
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    Default Big Game Commercial Services Board

    The BGCSB is meeting in Anchorage at the Egan Center Dec .10-11. Has anyone been to the meetings Its a good chance to see the Guides and Transporters at theire best (or worse) as they futher privatize the public hunting resources of Alaska.


    ďI should much regret to see grow up in this country
    a system of large private game preserves kept for
    the enjoyment of the very rich.
    One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness
    is its rugged and stalwart democracy.
    There every man stands for what he actually is
    and can show himself to be"

    Theodore Roosevelt

  2. #2
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous1 View Post
    The BGCSB is meeting in Anchorage at the Egan Center Dec .10-11. Has anyone been to the meetings Its a good chance to see the Guides and Transporters at theire best (or worse) as they futher privatize the public hunting resources of Alaska.


    “I should much regret to see grow up in this country
    a system of large private game preserves kept for
    the enjoyment of the very rich.
    One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness
    is its rugged and stalwart democracy.
    There every man stands for what he actually is
    and can show himself to be"

    Theodore Roosevelt
    I believe you are allowed to legally hunt anywhere I can legally guide, friend. And I hope it remains that way. The only exceptions I know of are very limited situations involving private (mostly native corporation) lands. But that's a landowner issue, not a hunting issue, isn't it?

    I have never attempted to run anyone out of areas I was guiding, but I have had DIY hunters try to run me out. Go figure.

    I hope you're joking...

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

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    Member anonymous1's Avatar
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    Default Joking??

    I`m hardly joking and with good reason. The BGCSB is a good deal for guides and transporters. I have great respect for Chairman Paul Johnson and some of the other Board members. They are champions of their industy and look after it well. What is lacking from the process is participation from the unguided resident hunter and without due diligence and vigilance private property rights and resource access by the public are sometimes over looked.

    Actually I maybe one up on you where I live world record brown bear walk throug my yard. My chances of drawing the tag are pretty slim but if I were so lucky I could hunt from my nice warm house. On the other hand this is Fed land with exclusive guide rights to about 1/3 of the total bear tags. You can`t guide there. The area has about 50 miles of coastline and consists of about 50,000 acres. One man gets 1/3 of the tags to sell to the highest bidder. A resident lucky enough to draw a tag has to camp in a tent and no one may provide him shelter except the guide. I would say this is a pretty exclusive privatized resource

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    I believe you are allowed to legally hunt anywhere I can legally guide, friend. And I hope it remains that way. The only exceptions I know of are very limited situations involving private (mostly native corporation) lands. But that's a landowner issue, not a hunting issue, isn't it?

    I have never attempted to run anyone out of areas I was guiding, but I have had DIY hunters try to run me out. Go figure.

    I hope you're joking...

    -Mike
    To guide; a commercial recreational hunt with the intention of taking a public resource right now is at best a privilege. There is a legitimate question as to whether it is legal at all. I think you know that.

    "anywhere I can legally guide"? Are you actually saying that when there is a scarcity of a resource.........where limits are imposed, guiding a commercial hunt is equal to the publics interest to conserve the resource?

    Please friend; I hope your joking.

    For 30 years I have been witnessing the changes to our game regulations. I doubt any objective party given the history and the facts can be convinced that guiding is not having an impact OR that the guide business has done anything less than put their commercial interest in front of A) residents B) wildlife conservation.

    It is wrong and it has to stop. Guides have a choice right now.


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    Default Broken record.

    AVALANCHE, I'm sure I am mistaken, but have you ever made a post that wasn't guide bashing on this forum?! I've never seen one. Try contributing something positive. Mind-numbing. By the way, I agree that something needs to be done and I think its happening sooner than later. I'm somehow able to talk about something else too!!
    WHY DON'T YOU DEDICATE A THREAD TO HACKING ON TRANSPORTERS FOR A CHANGE? THEY PUT MORE GUNS IN A GIVEN HUNT AREA (normally) THAN A GUIDE ANYWAY. SYSTEM'S BROKE. WE GOT IT! IT'S ALL MY FAULT. SORRY.

  6. #6

    Default OK I am out of here.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    AVALANCHE, I'm sure I am mistaken, but have you ever made a post that wasn't guide bashing on this forum?! I've never seen one. Try contributing something positive. Mind-numbing. By the way, I agree that something needs to be done and I think its happening sooner than later. I'm somehow able to talk about something else too!!
    WHY DON'T YOU DEDICATE A THREAD TO HACKING ON TRANSPORTERS FOR A CHANGE? THEY PUT MORE GUNS IN A GIVEN HUNT AREA (normally) THAN A GUIDE ANYWAY. SYSTEM'S BROKE. WE GOT IT! IT'S ALL MY FAULT. SORRY.
    I respectfully disagree with your statement that I am guide bashing. I am bashing THE BULL SYSTEM. Mostly what I read is people complaining about regulations that affect harvest opportunity; that sounds like a broken record to me. My perspective is different than yours.

    What is broke about the Transporters? Transporters are federally regulated; either by the coast guard or the FAA. Been that way forever. The only reason for a Transporters license is so the Big Guide Commercial Services Board [GUIDES] can attempt to get into that business too. That will be good for residents. Ohh and if you don't believe that go to the BGCS board meeting tomorrow and hear it for yourself.

    Seriously dude; I am not bashing any person who is a guide. There is no one better suited than the Bulls themselves to FIX THE BULL SYSTEM; however, I understand how hard it would be to get together as a group and castrate your selfs.

    Cheers.


  7. #7

    Default for the record

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=22107

    AK-HUNT; I did make a non controversial post in this thread; I also voted for the winner. i hope that counts for you.

    Merry Christmas to all who have endured my posts and may you have a prosperous New Year.

    Sincerely.
    AVALANCE

    Now I am out of here.


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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default A reply-

    Well, obviously some of you guys have done a lot more meditating on this than I have. But please donít make assumptions about what I think, what I know, what I think I know, and so forth. You donít know me and I donít know you. Especially when you donít use your name. Makes a guy wonder who weíre dealing with.

    As to this whole deal about selling the publicís resources and all, I donít know what youíre talking about. I am selling an experience to a member of the very public you are talking about. I help him or her by serving as camp cook, water boy, wood chopper, and pack mule. Are you saying that these folks should not have a right to hunt with a guide?

    I think you missed my point that you should be allowed to hunt where I hunt. I donít know when you came to this website, but I have stated publicly in the past that I believe Alaska residents should come first, when resources are short. After that would be the nonresident do-it-yourselfer, and the guides at the end of the line. If you're talking about GMU 9, I was not aware that there was a bear shortage out that way anyhow.

    Your comment about the transporters is curious. Yes, you do have to have a commercial license, but that hardly qualifies for the kind of regulation thatís needed. Currently I am limited to three guide use areas a year (these areas are much smaller than a sub unit). A transporter has no such limitations; they can drop you anywhere from Barrow to Adak, and all points in between, regardless of (and sometimes even because of) who else is there. Just last fall I outfitted a group who was promised that the charter they booked with would not drop anyone else on top of them. When the hunters arrived in the field, guess what? The air service had just dropped two other parties off in the same exact location. I had a chat with them after the season, and I will not be using that air service again. I certainly understand the need to fly folks around, and the crowding that sometimes occurs, but I donít understand lying or misrepresentation. They could have at least called. So yes, the air charter business is unregulated when it comes down to it. We need a zone system. But then folks would accuse the charters of gouging them because of the lack of competition!

    But wait! Who is flying in those airplanes and getting dropped off on top of each other? Yep, that same public that sometimes hires a guideÖ the guy who has the right to be dropped off anywhere he wants.

    Whoís gonna fix that?

    For the record, I am not a member of any guide organization, I am an advocate for the resident hunter as well as the non resident DIY hunter. And I am also a registered guide.

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
    Mob: 1 (907) 229-4501
    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

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    Default Get Fired Up Go To The Meeting

    Mike
    my only intention in starting this thread was to get the word out about the BGCSB meeting. I am certinly not trying to think for you. It struck me as odd that not one guide or transporter had mentioned it going on this week. There are lots of problems between guides and guides, guides and transporters and both groups and the hunting public. This forum and the BGCSB are the best places I know of to air opinions and to see what is really going on. Some people are getting fed up. I think the BGCSB is a little behind the curve of open and transparent government. Its awful hard to get much infomation from their web site. Maybe they are under funded.
    Changes will come like they are in the crab and ground fish rationalization programs. They went to far to fast. But they will come just like the slow tide creaping up on Ted and Ben. My name # and address are in my previouse posts. I did not dump on you. I have been there and I am in the fight not by what I did but of what changed without me being aware

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    Default The BGCSB

    I think the reason so many people are riding the guides so hard is for a couple of reasons. First the BGCSB is known as the guide board, or foxes guarding the chicken coupe. The board is not looking out for what is best for the resources, but more self perservation. I dont think that anyone has a problem with a guide like your self who actually guides his own clients, its the guides that hire 5 or 10 or more assistants to do the guiding, like what has happened in the wrangels with sheep hunting. Or guides that do more transporting than guiding.

    Terry

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    To some extent, it is not the job of guides to protect the resource. That is ADF&Gs job, tho "protect" is not the right word. ADF&G manages the resource. The "Guide Board" isn't in existence to regulate wildlife management. It exists to regulate guides and transporters.
    Guiding is a service industry, not a resource harvest industry. While some guides do try to manage their harvest in their areas of operation, they are only one aspect of the users who hunt in any area.
    I would say that transporters put far more hunters in any given area, both res and non res, than guides do.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

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    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Default 100% correct Martentrapper

    Perfect example is northern AK peninsula. Fly over that area day 2 or so of Brown bear season. I kid you not, every place you can put an airplane has a tent with hunters. This is in fed areas where there is only one guide. The air taxis SLAM these areas. I don't have a bone to pick with air taxis either, but they do way more damage to any areas I've been in than guides. Oh, and if you really want to get into it, see what the average bear taken by these transporters is compared to the guides. Its easy for the masses to blame guides for everything. I'm not sure dedicated guide use areas would even fix anything because there are still way too many transporters (make more money per person they stuff in the area) trying to work a given area. Thinking out loud.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    Default

    ahhh transporters...like the ones that take up to 100 deer hunters a year on kodiak....and now villiages are upset...weird.
    Www.blackriverhunting.com
    Master guide 212

  14. #14

    Question Why won't we let the free market regulate it

    I've frequently posted comments about how negative comments about individual guides/transporters/charters are not allowed on this post and my perception is that it is counterproductive.

    I fail to understand why? I've heard the legal concern over libel, but honestly I can say I don't buy it. Does Cabela's get sued everytime 7/10 customers says item X isn't worth buying. Amazon goes one step further and not only publishes customer reviews but cross references them for you. Plus there is an entire customer service industry that's primary product is "consumer reports".

    This forum is widely known as one the two best online spots to get information about experiencing Alaska - I refer every newcomer to it (and as I'm military I see lots of newcomers). And as Mr. Strahan pointed out guides provide an "experience" - that is their product. However, somehow criticizing the experience provided is construed as criticizing the guide/transporter themself and thus constitutes libel. I whole-heartedly disagree. A guide/transporter that provides a crummy experience 1) will improve experience provided or 2) find a new line of work.

    ADFG's job is to protect the resource. Guides/transporters/charters are a business. Businesses are influenced by the market. If hunters in Alaska desire a certain type of experience - for example relative solitude, conservation before the kill, personal one on one attention, responsible behavior (firearms, trash, etc) - I fail to understand why we can't publicly share information on not only who provides that type of experience (allowed under forum rules), but also those who definitely do not (not allowed).

    This is not forum or guide bashing - I only propose to allow public discussion of a business product based on experience - not wholesale subjective criticism. This of course puts the burden on the moderators to regulate the discussion, and keep it on point and squash threads/post that stray.

    Just food for thought.

    Joe

  15. #15

    Default you probably just killed this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ucohokie View Post
    I've frequently posted comments about how negative comments about individual guides/transporters/charters are not allowed on this post and my perception is that it is counterproductive.

    I fail to understand why? I've heard the legal concern over libel, but honestly I can say I don't buy it. Does Cabela's get sued everytime 7/10 customers says item X isn't worth buying. Amazon goes one step further and not only publishes customer reviews but cross references them for you. Plus there is an entire customer service industry that's primary product is "consumer reports".

    This forum is widely known as one the two best online spots to get information about experiencing Alaska - I refer every newcomer to it (and as I'm military I see lots of newcomers). And as Mr. Strahan pointed out guides provide an "experience" - that is their product. However, somehow criticizing the experience provided is construed as criticizing the guide/transporter themself and thus constitutes libel. I whole-heartedly disagree. A guide/transporter that provides a crummy experience 1) will improve experience provided or 2) find a new line of work.

    ADFG's job is to protect the resource. Guides/transporters/charters are a business. Businesses are influenced by the market. If hunters in Alaska desire a certain type of experience - for example relative solitude, conservation before the kill, personal one on one attention, responsible behavior (firearms, trash, etc) - I fail to understand why we can't publicly share information on not only who provides that type of experience (allowed under forum rules), but also those who definitely do not (not allowed).

    This is not forum or guide bashing - I only propose to allow public discussion of a business product based on experience - not wholesale subjective criticism. This of course puts the burden on the moderators to regulate the discussion, and keep it on point and squash threads/post that stray.

    Just food for thought.

    Joe
    with your logic and reason...........


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    Member MARV1's Avatar
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    Default

    I was right next door to them at the Federal Subsistence Board meeting. My group won a tough battle against one icehole guide/processor that is against our way of life.
    The emphasis is on accuracy, not power!

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    Angry

    Quote from martintrapper

    "The "Guide Board" isn't in existence to regulate wildlife management. It exists to regulate guides and transporters."

    The Guided board is mostly made up of guides, this is foxes guarding the chicken coupe. Also, guides are complaining about transporters, way I see it they regulate them.

    Quote from martintrapper

    "Guiding is a service industry, not a resource harvest industry" I totally disagree with you. Most guided hunters come to Alaska to take a Trophy home, they produce the animals or more than likely the hunters will use a diffferent guide next time, thats why they pay $20,000 for brown bear hunt.

    Quote from AK Hunt

    "Perfect example is northern AK peninsula. Fly over that area day 2 or so of Brown bear season. I kid you not, every place you can put an airplane has a tent with hunters. This is in fed areas where there is only one guide. The air taxis SLAM these areas."

    Have you ever been to sheep country like the wrangels or the Hula Hula in the brooks range, there will be a guide on all most every knoll. And to boot, we all know that they think the own and area and attempt to run other people out. I know I was brown bear hunting on the Alaska Pen in 2000 and this guide was a pain to us every day until I tagged and got out of there because as he said I have clients that paid $16,000 dollars and expect a more remote hunt.

    Im not a guide or transporter, and I have friends that are both. Its not the guides that actually guide I have a a problem with, it is the salesman who book 20 to 100 plus hunts a year and has asst guides do all the work(for very little money). Alaska is the only state that I can find that has asst guides, the rest have guides and guides in training. If somesone is qualified to guide you non supervised, then they should be a guide(oh, the good old boy system, that self regulates and limits the amount of guides, SELF Preservation). Dont forget you are blaming transporters, but guides transports people also. I have no love for the big transporters that just continue to drop hunts in a area until everything is gone either. Both groups really have no supervision, and its us the average guys that it ends up costing. If I flew with some in the past that did not respect the resource and clients, I let by peace be heard, if I fly with someone I really respect same is true.

    PROBLEM IS SYSTEM IS BROKE, There are no checks and balances and I dont see it getting fixed anytime soon.

    Terry

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