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Thread: Should the Snow Machine Tax be abolished?

  1. #1
    Member mit's Avatar
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    Default Should the Snow Machine Tax be abolished?

    I think the other thread got Hijacked lets start a new one.

    Would the NRA push for a gun registration fee to protect gun rights
    Tim

  2. #2

    Default $$$$

    Mit,

    Quick questions....

    Are you a member of a snowmobile club?

    Have you sent money to a club to help support our right to ride?

    How many hours have you volunteered to a club to help support our right to ride?



    Are you a member of the NRA or other "hunting" club?

    Have you sent money to the NRA or other "hunting" club to help support our right to Bear Arms?

    How many hours have you volunteered to the NRA or other "hunting club" to help support our right to Bear Arms?


    Thanks,

  3. #3
    Member mit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltsryd View Post
    Mit,

    Quick questions....

    Are you a member of a snowmobile club?

    Have you sent money to a club to help support our right to ride?

    How many hours have you volunteered to a club to help support our right to ride?



    Are you a member of the NRA or other "hunting" club?

    Have you sent money to the NRA or other "hunting" club to help support our right to Bear Arms?

    How many hours have you volunteered to the NRA or other "hunting club" to help support our right to Bear Arms?


    Thanks,
    What difference does that make If you volunteer good for you! But you still only get one vote and it doesn't give you the authority to speak for others.
    Tim

  4. #4

    Default You're correct.

    Mit,

    You are correct. I only have one vote and I do not want to speak for others.

    I just wanted to know if you ride for free or help the people that fight for your right to ride.

    Also, as a side note. I do not know how to make it work, but I believe they have a poll feature on this and then people can just post a yea or nea if your interested.

    Best wishes.

  5. #5
    Member mit's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ltsryd View Post
    Mit,

    You are correct. I only have one vote and I do not want to speak for others.

    I just wanted to know if you ride for free or help the people that fight for your right to ride.

    Also, as a side note. I do not know how to make it work, but I believe they have a poll feature on this and then people can just post a yea or nea if your interested.

    Best wishes.

    If you think that being in a snowmachine club is only criteria for protecting riding I think you would be wrong and clubs do not speak for all the riders out there. But Mr. Hite decided to do just that in my opinion!
    You don't have to do any of those things to fight for the right to ride and many (not me) would say it isn't a right.
    Someone in the other thread called them "toys" Toys they are not, they are tools to many folks and are used as such by many that have never seen the Gucci magazines that are printed now days.
    Where do you live? and have you ever been to a Village that isn't on the road system?

    I don't have a clue as to how to make one of those polls

    I do not understand how you can make the assertion that the snowmachine tax will protect riding? If you want to generated those funds don't give the money to the state!
    Tim

  6. #6
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    Default No such thing as a free lunch

    If you're riding on public land you're using a public resource and should pay a fee.

    If you ride your sled on solely on private land I don't think it needs to be registered......... is that incorrect?

    Just like an automobile, if I'm not mistaken, if I drive my vehicle of any type on my own private property I do not need to register it with the state or have a drivers license for that matter.

    If you're out using public trails and trail heads or any type of public land then pony up the registration and stop complaining about paying your way.

  7. #7

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    If I never have riden on a groomed trail, why should I have to pay to use a public resource? What about havening a trail pass or something if you ride on groomed public trails.

  8. #8
    Member mit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKCheese View Post
    If you're riding on public land you're using a public resource and should pay a fee.

    I disagree if I'm riding on public land; it is public and my taxes already cover that.

    If you ride your sled on solely on private land I don't think it needs to be registered......... is that incorrect?

    yep correct, not incorrect

    Just like an automobile, if I'm not mistaken, if I drive my vehicle of any type on my own private property I do not need to register it with the state or have a drivers license for that matter.

    Kinda the Auto registration is the license for the vehicle to use the public improved, maintained, blah, blah blah road. So where is the title in this mess?


    If you're out using public trails and trail heads or any type of public land then pony up the registration and stop complaining about paying your way.
    Yep and if I use one I should, If I don't I shouldn't have to. Who isn't paying their way? What gives you the authority to make the rules all by yourself? If you think it is such a good idea to give the state money then go a head and send them a couple grand if you think it will help; but you don't get to spend my money without some input if that is complaining then you should start another thread on the subject of complaining.
    Tim

  9. #9
    Member mit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim mcleary View Post
    If I never have riden on a groomed trail, why should I have to pay to use a public resource? What about havening a trail pass or something if you ride on groomed public trails.

    Not a bad idea! I have never ridden on a trail that has had state money put into it. How would I know if I did? Get the Government out of it! Everybody wants the government to pay for it.
    Tim

  10. #10
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    Default

    I dont mind the current fee. But I don't like the idea of it going to groom and punch new trails that I'll never use. I think that a trail pass system would be a great idea. Let the people who use the trails pay for them. But then who's going to police them?

    Where do our regisration fees go anyway?

  11. #11

    Default Lonely over here.

    It's getting pretty lonely and cold on this side of the screen.

    COS,
    I still believe it is strength in numbers. I am not happy that, I, a user of State land and member of an active snowmobile organization new nothing of the proposed rate increase. It could very well be he overstepped his bounds, we'll see. He may not be doing what is best for the numbers, or he may be. I need to find out more. But to your point, it is still beneficial for snowmobilers to unite and show thier strength (number of users).

    I would really like to see someone, who knows the facts of the full intended agenda, come on here and explain the intensions. It would help a lot.

    To others,
    I think we might be getting stuck on the groomed trail thing. For me the organizations help fight for access. Here is an example for what I mean.... Where I live we have trails that we have used since I can remember. These trails were used freely and no one ever thought anything less than they were established trails for us to use. WRONG! Fish and game attempted to shut them down. We are being told by the powers to be, that we have no legal access to our remote properties.

    We are truly blessed, I feel, to live in Alaska where we are several years behind the lower 48 and all of thier restrictions and land right fights. However, it is moving our way. It is now in my back yard and moving outward. It doesn't matter if you live in a remote village or in the big city, you are on the anti's agenda, it just may take a little longer to get to you.

    Think about it for a minute, you don't have to snowmobile to subsist, you can use the dog team, or snowshoes. Personally, I would rather ride, but if you think that for a minute, there is not an organized anti snowmobile group looking to end our riding your turning a blind eye to it.

    I am as much of a anti tax proponent as they come. I do however believe in user fees. I snowmobile on State lands and know that if something should happen to me the troopers will be out looking for me at the States expense (helicopters, airplanes, snowmobiles, etc.). This is true anywhere in the State, bush or city. The State will even do this on private land. I ride so I should pay.

    Another example....... Because of the money given to my areas snowmobile organization from the State we have been able to get trails marked and cleared. We go to schools and do safety classes. We educate the public about winter safety. We have had no search and rescue call outs in three years. So the State (us, we, you) saved thousands of dollars. One search and rescue mission can cost thousands of dollars. We will only receive about $14,000 or so this year from the state. The fee is working, I feel.

    Should it be increased, hmmm, who is going to get it? Matt Maid? (not meaning to pick on Matt Maid, just an easy example.) I would like to know all the facts!

  12. #12
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKCheese View Post
    If you're riding on public land you're using a public resource and should pay a fee.....
    Do granola eaters pay a fee to hike on public lands?

    Do they pay snowmobile clubs to assist in trail grooming fees when they XX ski on those trails?

    How about those hikers in Eddie Bauer boots who hike on trails established and used by ATV hunters, then complain in newspaper print about the muddy conditions, despite the fact that there are thousands of square miles of area that are banned to the use of such machines that they can hike in?

    ....If you're out using public trails and trail heads or any type of public land then pony up the registration and stop complaining about paying your way.
    I'll pay..............when the granola eaters pay.

  13. #13

    Default Good point.

    Mark,

    Good points. There was at one time some legislation to put a "wildlife viewing fee" ( I forget what the real name was, sorry.). I thought it had merit. It was designed to hit a user group that should help pay. It was strongly opposed by commercial services and lost.

    "How about those hikers in Eddie Bauer boots who hike on trails established and used by ATV hunters, then complain in newspaper print about the muddy conditions, despite the fact that there are thousands of square miles of area that are banned to the use of such machines that they can hike in?"
    Well said. I couldn't have said it any better, especially the part about:

    despite the fact that there are thousands of square miles of area that are banned to the use of such machines that they can hike in?"
    I'm quite sure you were not meaning to help me out with my side of the table but you did hit the nail on the head.

    I ask those that do not agree with me, (hopefully this can be kept constructive and no name calling. So far so good.), to look into what is going on in the lower 48. Here is a link to a very powerful organization that may be able to answer question much better than I.

    http://www.sharetrails.org/alerts/

  14. #14
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltsryd View Post
    ......I'm quite sure you were not meaning to help me out with my side of the table but you did hit the nail on the head.....
    Yes and no. I admire the snowmobile clubs and recognize that they do lots of great work advocating for trail work and actually performing most of that work themselves. No doubt about it, they're definately on my side.

    I wrote an article about the legislation that allowed a change in transportation law in 2000 which would allow snowmobile use in the Dalton Hwy Corridor only if that use didn't originate within the corridor itself and sent it to a popular newsletter published by snowmobile clubs. They printed the article, but there was absolutely nothing afterwards. I guess even snowmobilers weren't interested in the inequity involved.

  15. #15
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    Default What difference does it make if it's groomed?

    You're operating a motor vehicle on public land (or water)

    Get your checkbook out and quit whining.........

    Somebody decided long ago that operating vehicles on public land would incur a fee

    No snowshoers and hikers do not pay that fee

    If you want to hike and snowshoe with them go for it and save a few bucks

    Same if you want to take the outboard off your canoe

    I'm not sure what taxes you think you are already paying your way

    Our income tax? (last time I looked there isn't one)

    State sales tax? (last time I looked there isn't one)

    For a state that exists almost exclusively on Federal and Oil Tax Dollars I find it humorous how reluctant most Alaskan's are to pay even a tiny part towards what they enjoy

    You say you live in "rural Alaska" so you don't get to ride on groomed trails? Don't even get me started on the great sucking sound of tax dollars subsidizing THAT lifestyle!!!!

  16. #16
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKCheese View Post
    You're operating a motor vehicle on public land (or water)

    Get your checkbook out and quit whining.........

    Somebody decided long ago that operating vehicles on public land would incur a fee....
    Who was that "somebody"?

    .....I'm not sure what taxes you think you are already paying your way.

    Our income tax? (last time I looked there isn't one)

    State sales tax? (last time I looked there isn't one)....
    Try fuel taxes, both federal and state. The fuel taxes on non-highway vehicles has already been an issue, and refunds are available in several states:

    ....According to the Federal Highway Administration, almost 4 million gallons of gasoline were used for non-highway purposes in 2001. Of this, almost 25% (993,837 gallons) was used in marine activities. The cost of this fuel generally includes a highway use tax of anywhere from 7.5¢/gallon to close to 30¢/gallon depending on the state.

    Many states apply the tax on marine fuel towards boating programs through the Aquatic Resources Trust Fund. But in other states the money does not get funneled into the marine community, and instead is put into the highway improvement fund. Since boats don’t cause wear and tear on the highways, bridges, and ferries that benefit from that fund, applying marine fuel tax towards the highway improvement fund is widely viewed as unfair.

    To deal with the problem, several states have instituted procedures to refund at least part of the tax to recreational boaters who take the time to fill out the required paperwork and provide receipts as needed.....
    ....For a state that exists almost exclusively on Federal and Oil Tax Dollars I find it humorous how reluctant most Alaskan's are to pay even a tiny part towards what they enjoy....
    I don't mind paying the tax. What burns my fanny is the folks who want to push me off the trails that hunters and other motorized users created to begin with, and who don't pay squat, even though a good portion of the state has been set aside for them and them alone whwere motorized use is illegal.

  17. #17
    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    Mark be careful what you wish for (with regard to extracting fees from the...uh, ahem, non-consumptive low impact crowd)

    The Golden Rule--He who has the gold makes the rules--has a corollary, He who pays says. Our bearing the bulk of the financial burden for fish and game management, or in this case trail maintenance works to our advantage because in our society money talks. This dynamic gives us a stronger voice that we would have otherwise. How did James Brown put it? Payin' the cost for bein' the Boss

    If nothing else registering our machines, whether they be toys or work horses, gives both the policy makers and those who defend us hard facts with which to base decisions. There is strength in numbers and we machine riders, whether we as individuals ride trails or not, are a potentially significant constituency. But only if we are willing to be represented.

    If the earth muffins are forced to pay then they gain a stronger bargaining position.

  18. #18
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik in AK View Post
    Mark be careful what you wish for (with regard to extracting fees from the...uh, ahem, non-consumptive low impact crowd)

    The Golden Rule--He who has the gold makes the rules--has a corollary, He who pays says. Our bearing the bulk of the financial burden for fish and game management, or in this case trail maintenance works to our advantage because in our society money talks. This dynamic gives us a stronger voice that we would have otherwise. How did James Brown put it? Payin' the cost for bein' the Boss.....
    All true, Erik. The problem with that is that the no-pay, all-talk crowd still have plenty of clout with the media, politicians, and the uneducated/uncaring masses

    .....If nothing else registering our machines, whether they be toys or work horses, gives both the policy makers and those who defend us hard facts with which to base decisions. There is strength in numbers and we machine riders, whether we as individuals ride trails or not, are a potentially significant constituency. But only if we are willing to be represented.

    If the earth muffins are forced to pay then they gain a stronger bargaining position.
    They do pay. They pay with the "donation" button on all those radical environmental websites, then the environmental advocacy group gives campaign contributions to the politicians or pay for lawyers to stop whatever they don't like in court. Essentially, we're paying for the infrastructure, and they're greasing palms.

    Unfortunately, it appears that they're paying less and getting more........

  19. #19
    Member Trail Boss's Avatar
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    Smile Non-Motorized doin ther part!!!

    Here in Willow the dog mushers voluntier there time to trim trails and GPS. trails for surveys. Never mind how many hours some of these guys breaking trail so one of them can help the Willow Trail Comm. go out the next day and groom! I get a lot of Skijorers that will donate time and money into our local trails. Also a small group of X-county skies that help out. The small amout of money coming from the state tags help out with gas, tools, surveys and help to maintain our rigs for grooming. But it takes a lot more than this to this to keep trails open to all and in good shape. Mat-Su Bed Taxes, Federal Grants and private donations are just some of the other ways we get moneys to keep trails open to all!
    I hope all groups can get together and expand the trails Alaska into a fun and safe system for all!

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by mit View Post
    Would the NRA push for a gun registration fee to protect gun rights
    They might as well, all they do is beat their membership up with the sky is falling gotta have your money now or you'll lose you guns marketing to membership.

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