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Thread: Ahtna Lands

  1. #1
    Member stiginz's Avatar
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    Default Ahtna Lands

    I just wanted to post a link to a new website for information on Ahtna Lands. This website was created to try and provide better information to the public.

    http://ahtna.lands.googlepages.com/

    This website is a work in progress and I would appreciate any comments or suggestions the forum might have.

    One issue that we are working with BLM and the State of Alaska to address is access across Ahtna Lands. Numerous trails, called 17(b) trails, were put in place to allow the public to cross Native Corporation lands to reach public lands. These are public easements and no permit from Ahtna is needed to cross if you stay on the designated 17(b) trail.

    The problem is that often the trails were drawn based on the info they had in the 1970s and do not reflect where the actual trail is on the ground. Also, some of the trails put in place as 17(b) trails did not and still do not exist on the ground. We are GPSing the trails but it is a long and expensive endeavor (there are nearly 200). I hope to eventually have maps on the above site showing the location of the trails and their acceptable uses as designated by BLM.

    If you need to cross Ahtna Lands and there is not a 17(b) trail in the area, you can purchase a permit ($10-$100 depending on what you would like to do). Hunting (except for the Bison Hunting Permit) is not allowed on Ahtna Lands. However, if you just want to cross Ahtna to get to where you would like to hunt you can still purchase a permit.

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    Member mod elan's Avatar
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    Are these all conveyed lands? Or does this map combine both conveyed and selected?

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiginz View Post
    If you need to cross Ahtna Lands and there is not a 17(b) trail in the area, you can purchase a permit ($10-$100 depending on what you would like to do).
    May I ask a question about these permits? If the permit is just to cross the land, why does the fee change based on what the person will be doing on the public land after crossing? Perhaps this isn't the case with Ahtna, but I know that other corps charge more if the person will be hunting after crossing their land. I don't understand how this is legal or justified. If a fee is to be charged for crossing the land, fine - it should be a flat rate that is not connected to what is legally done on the public land being accessed.

    Perhaps I am unclear on the concept, however. Can you clarify this for me?

  4. #4

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    It is the case on Ahtna land, if you go to their site and click on the permits link it will show you what each activity will cost. Gotta love that $1500 bison trespass fee too. F&G basically tells you that if your not willing to pay the $1500 then you shouldn't apply for the hunt, pure BS IMO.

    Here it is in black and white:
    "During the hunt period, most bison are found on private lands, where a $1500 trespass fee is charged. Success is high on private land. If you do not have considerable knowledge of the local area, a considerable amount of time to hunt, or do not plan to purchase the trespass permit, please do not apply for this hunt."

  5. #5
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiginz View Post
    I just wanted to post a link to a new website for information on Ahtna Lands. This website was created to try and provide better information to the public....
    Thank you very much! I've been waiting for this information for quite some time.

    ....One issue that we are working with BLM and the State of Alaska to address is access across Ahtna Lands. Numerous trails, called 17(b) trails, were put in place to allow the public to cross Native Corporation lands to reach public lands. These are public easements and no permit from Ahtna is needed to cross if you stay on the designated 17(b) trail.

    The problem is that often the trails were drawn based on the info they had in the 1970s and do not reflect where the actual trail is on the ground. Also, some of the trails put in place as 17(b) trails did not and still do not exist on the ground. We are GPSing the trails but it is a long and expensive endeavor (there are nearly 200). I hope to eventually have maps on the above site showing the location of the trails and their acceptable uses as designated by BLM....
    I bought a permit this past September to cross Ahtna lands, and I suspect this was a 17(b) trail that hasn't yet been surveyed. I look forward to those trails getting identified with Ahtna and BLM.

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    The website pretty well answers yourquestions Brian, & I think the different fees pertain to what you want to do ON AHTNA land (daily tresspass, seasonal, camping, etc.), not after you cross it.

    AKHunter45, you may think that's a lot to hunt bison on private property (and it's out of my range for sure), but compared to what some friends down in the midwest pay to hunt a deer lease (or what some folks in the west pay to hunt pheasant on private property) it seems reasonable.
    Personaly I'll keep chasing moose on public land, or if I ever get desperate I'll pay the local native corp. $100. to hunt local corp. land.
    Vance in AK.

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    Member shphtr's Avatar
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    Default and the answer is.....

    "Are these all conveyed lands? Or does this map combine both conveyed and selected?"

    This is an important distinction since as I understand it if the land has been "conveyed", but NOT "selected" then the land in question is still FEDERAL or STATE and hence would not have restricted access, as in it would still be public land.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shphtr View Post
    This is an important distinction since as I understand it if the land has been "conveyed", but NOT "selected" then the land in question is still FEDERAL or STATE and hence would not have restricted access, as in it would still be public land.
    I think it's the other way around. If the land has been selected, that means the corp wants it. But it is still public land until it has been conveyed. Either way, though, this is an important question.



    Vance - Thanks for clarifying. Admittedly, I did not take the time to visit their website before posing the question. I suppose I should do my homework.

  9. #9

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    It is the other way around - selected land doesn't give a native corp any power over it - it remains the responsibility of the government body until it is conveyed.

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    Member stiginz's Avatar
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    Thanks to all for your interest and questions. I tried my best to answer them all with the website but you can never think of everything!

    The maps on the website only depict conveyed lands (the red shaded areas). These are lands that Ahtna has received title to, so they own them. I should make this more clear on the maps.

    Selected lands are, as mentioned by others, lands that the Corporation would like. BLM still administers these lands and Ahtna has no ownership of them. It is important to note that there are restrictions on 'selected' land. These mostly have to do with clouding the title or creating an encumbrance in case the Corporation does take the land as far as I understand it. BLM would be the expert opinion on that, but as far as I know you can still hunt, cross, pick berries, camp, and use the land as long as it is a temporary use.

    Ahtna permits are not related to what you will do when you leave or after you cross Ahtna land. They are based on how you would like to use Ahtna lands (ie crossing, camping, snowmachine, etc..).

    Mark - you mentioned that you bought a permit for an area and think it was a 17(b). Can you let me know the details and I can research it further for you?

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    Vance in AK, I don't think you can get a permit to hunt on Ahtna lands, from what I understand only the shareholders can on Ahtna lands, and most of the shareholders are the older natives. You can hunt bears and wolves though on Ahtna lands, except during the general hunting season. Many of the younger natives have to buy trespass permits as well.

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    Default Outrage

    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    It is the case on Ahtna land, if you go to their site and click on the permits link it will show you what each activity will cost. Gotta love that $1500 bison trespass fee too. F&G basically tells you that if your not willing to pay the $1500 then you shouldn't apply for the hunt, pure BS IMO.

    Here it is in black and white:
    "During the hunt period, most bison are found on private lands, where a $1500 trespass fee is charged. Success is high on private land. If you do not have considerable knowledge of the local area, a considerable amount of time to hunt, or do not plan to purchase the trespass permit, please do not apply for this hunt."

    John, You're spot on. This fee is an outrage! So much for the concept of subsistence and providing meat for one's family.

    It's obvious Ahtna is all about greed, not tradition or meat on the table. Boy I'd love to see this challenged in court.

    Shame on them.

    Just my .02.

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    gotta love being white. oops wait..did i say that outloud? i think its great athna is putting out this info for everyone, alot of corp/private holders won't even do that. some don't even know whats going on. did anyone know that just about the entire north road system on kodiak is private native land and hunting is illegal except for shareholders but there are a pile of goat tags and deer/bear hunters using it..obviously but the native corp who owns it, didn't even realize hunters are on it?
    i'd almost rather pay for a permit and have them care about the land, but caring more about the money than the land is where the line seems to get rubbery. charging different rates per specie of animal hunted...well not sure how i feel about that..charging money based on what critter you want to hunt,a critter than actually belongs to the state and is not private property. i'm confused on why they do that though.
    Www.blackriverhunting.com
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    Member stiginz's Avatar
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    Well, fullkurl, I would have to disagree with you.

    I fail to see how a Bison Hunt where a couple dozen permits were issued is about feeding your family. The State of Alaska created this hunt knowing that the herd mainly stays on private property. Ahtna was left with two choices; keep their land closed and prosecute trespassers, or try and work with the State and the Permit draw winners. Either way, people are going to be angry.

    I think they did the right thing and chose to work with people. I can assure you that the money from these permits does not come close to the costs of administering the program (mail outs, mapping, flyers, patrol, etc.)

    As far as tradition goes, do you know how the Bison herd got there? The herd on Ahtna land was transplanted there in the 50s. So it is hard to image a "tradition" of hunting Bison.

    I'm sorry you feel so negative towards Ahtna. I'm sure you have your reasons but in this particular case (Bison Hunt) I cannot see what they are.

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    Just sent you a PM on an off subject topic.

    Joe

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    Member jkb's Avatar
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    Default Fees

    I was hunting caribou out of Tok on a registration hunt in the 90's and the Corporation around Northway was charging a $30.00 fee. I was grateful that I knew whose land I was on and that I was welcome to hunt there. It is very frustrating to see No Tresspassing sign so a fee is a great alternative. The only question I would have is, do these Corps. have property tax exempt status in organized boroughs.

  17. #17
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiginz View Post
    Mark - you mentioned that you bought a permit for an area and think it was a 17(b). Can you let me know the details and I can research it further for you?
    I sent you a PM.

    Thanks!

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    Member shphtr's Avatar
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    Default Thank you

    "It is the other way around - selected land doesn't give a native corp any power over it - it remains the responsibility of the government body until it is conveyed"

    I stand corrected - I could not remember which was which and obviously remembered incorrectly - nevertheless the distinction is pertinent and as far as I can discern, the original question has not been addressed....

  19. #19
    Member fullkurl's Avatar
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    Default interesting....hmmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by stiginz View Post
    Well, fullkurl, I would have to disagree with you.

    I fail to see how a Bison Hunt where a couple dozen permits were issued is about feeding your family. The State of Alaska created this hunt knowing that the herd mainly stays on private property. Ahtna was left with two choices; keep their land closed and prosecute trespassers, or try and work with the State and the Permit draw winners. Either way, people are going to be angry.

    I think they did the right thing and chose to work with people. I can assure you that the money from these permits does not come close to the costs of administering the program (mail outs, mapping, flyers, patrol, etc.)

    As far as tradition goes, do you know how the Bison herd got there? The herd on Ahtna land was transplanted there in the 50s. So it is hard to image a "tradition" of hunting Bison.

    I'm sorry you feel so negative towards Ahtna. I'm sure you have your reasons but in this particular case (Bison Hunt) I cannot see what they are.
    Look at the bigger picture, STIG. C'mon.
    The tradition is called hunting.
    Ya know, that part where one kills game to fill the freezer and provide food for one's family? Bison, Moose, whats the difference. Both animals yield meat in abundance.
    And I fail to see how that bison being transplanted is germane either. I'll not argue semantics anyway.

    Two choices for Ahtna? Gee, I didn't see the option: "let folks simply shoot a bison on Ahtna land."
    Wonder why? Hmmm... Same reason one gets hassled down on the Klutina river or Klutina Lake. Same reason one gets hassled down on the Copper River and Chitina. Its all about the money. Always is.
    This isn't a native bash, most native Alaskans know nothing about these stipulations I'd bet.
    It's a condemnation of corporative greed. Hey, 100-200 dollars for a land use permit? Okay. $1,500 for a tresspass fee? Outrageous.

    Why should a bison (property of the people of the state of Alaska) be more than another animal of a different specie?
    Greed plain and simple. Ahtna knows people want a buff and will pay to get one.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by fullkurl View Post
    Look at the bigger picture, STIG. C'mon.
    The tradition is called hunting.
    Ya know, that part where one kills game to fill the freezer and provide food for one's family? Bison, Moose, whats the difference. Both animals yield meat in abundance.
    And I fail to see how that bison being transplanted is germane either. I'll not argue semantics anyway.

    Two choices for Ahtna? Gee, I didn't see the option: "let folks simply shoot a bison on Ahtna land."
    Wonder why? Hmmm... Same reason one gets hassled down on the Klutina river or Klutina Lake. Same reason one gets hassled down on the Copper River and Chitina. Its all about the money. Always is.
    This isn't a native bash, most native Alaskans know nothing about these stipulations I'd bet.
    It's a condemnation of corporative greed. Hey, 100-200 dollars for a land use permit? Okay. $1,500 for a tresspass fee? Outrageous.

    Why should a bison (property of the people of the state of Alaska) be more than another animal of a different specie?
    Greed plain and simple. Ahtna knows people want a buff and will pay to get one.
    It's private property. No different than, say, a certain private hunting ranch in Texas that charges exorbitant fees for hunting and files criminal charges AND civil suits against not only hunters but kids that come on their land.

    You do advocate private property rights, don't you? I'm frankly surprised all native corps haven't closed their land period.

    To be clear I'm not a native and I am not saying that the system put in place by ANILCA and ANSCA is either perfect nor was it the right thing to do (it may have been, maybe not but that is a subject for another thread) but I am amused that people think that they should have some inherent right to hunt on another's land.

    If I had bison on my land you couldn't shoot them for any amount of money - and it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if they belonged to the state of Alaska.

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