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Thread: Expaining My 25-300WBY

  1. #1

    Default Expaining My 25-300WBY

    I really have not taken the approapriate time and space to explain my why for the 25-300WBY. Now I know there are a lot of opinions and theroies out there and I am not saying this is the best of anything. It is just something I really wanted to try and was encouraged by some of my friends to do so. Now to begin with as of late my favorite rifle and cartridge has become my 416WBY Mark V shooting a 350gr TSX on the average of 2930fps and it shooting at 100yds consistently .496"MOA.

    Let me begin by saying that Roy Weatherby did not have three things in his day of developing his fast cartridges that we now have in our day. Yes, Roy was hampered by three things, 1. First, needing slower burning powders that we today have in many forms. 2. Second, needing good tough bullets that would hold together up close and still open up way down range like the TSX. 3. Third, needing the steel we have today for making our barrels that last longer.

    I believe if he had these three things I mentioned in his day we would not have the 257WBY Mag but would have had the 257-300WBY mag and the 270-300WBY mag and the 30-378 would have been in production a lot sooner than it was.

    Well, I might get run out of town for this but with the tough TSX I plan on hunting everything but the big brown bears. Hoping to get somewhere between 4100-4200fps with 100gr TSX, 3823ft pounds at muzzle and still retain 1536ft pounds at 600. I would sight in at 2.9" high at 100 and my zero would be 415yds and only -6.53" at 500yds. Yes, I can hear it coming but with 3800 plus pounds of energy and a tough bullet just about anything I want to shoot it will kill and the hydrostatic shock will be phenomenal. The hydrostatic shock will be so great in it's hydraulic force that it will cause the blood to flow backwards and stop the heart if the heart is not what I actually hit. It will devastate what it hits and if this really works out it will be a for real one shot killer. With my calculations of hydrostatic shock at these velocities producing such a great hydraulic force the bullet could be placed anywhere in the main part of the body of the animal and still kill him quickly. Of course my 25-300 will have to share time killing game with one of my now favorite rifles which is my 416WBY and I just love it. Ok, I am ready for all the opinions, and don't we all have some.

    I am nervous, I sure want this all to work good because that would mean no more BDC scopes out to 600. At 540 yards hold on top of shoulder and good to 620yds. I do have to account for wind drift and wind can really mess up long shots and even practice doesn't make any difference some times. Of course I am only interested in being able to rest my rifle and make shots out to 500yds and not have to worry about bullet drop. And for deer size game and up this should be the ticket. I sure hope so and as I said I am nervous but also excited. I know a lot of you guys know exactly what I am talking about when I say nervous and excited at the same time. But I was willing to take the risk and have an open mind enough to try this thing. Hope I am this open minded after I develop loads and shoot it. This is just a post to kinda explain my thinking and it sure is not perfect but this is where I am as I try this cartridge and we sure will see when the rubber meets the road in a about three weeks.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  2. #2
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    I don't think anyone at anytime has to explain what they want to do to anyone. If it trips your trigger to build this thing, then do it.

    As for hyper-fast projectiles: the only rifle I will hunt with will be one that fires a bullet at 2650 fps or less. My 8x60S, 9x57, 8x57, 7x57, 7.62x51, .500 A-Square, or .375 Weatherby will never be loaded faster than that. I hunt for meat, not trophies. Those hyper-velocity projectiles blast the meat into mush, and vaporized lead saturates the area of the wound.

    If I were going to build a rifle like this, I would be exclusively using a solid copper, bronze, or other alloyed material, but not lead, unless it was for target shooting purposes.

    It all depends on what someone wants to do, and the preferences of the individual. If you want to hunt with this thing, by all means do so. I hope you catch all the animals you desire. I cannot picture myself using this rifle, because in my part of the world, long shots are very rare. Only one fellow I know of has shot an animal farther than 300 yards. Everyone else I know the range is usually 100 yards or less, with 75 yards the norm. For me, two moose within 35 feet, and a caribou 50 feet, and drove past a swimming brown bear this summer at about 15 feet (way too close).

    Again, it depends on the desire of the owner.

    I want to see this cartridge once you have it all formed up. I think your barrel, if you aren't going to use the factory barrel, should be >26" in length to take advantage of the powder capacity, and make it on the heavy side to help as much as possible to make it a bug-holer.

    Ok, just saw the other thread. After you shoot the re-chambered barrel out, then apply the above. Man, that is a sexy beast, long neck though. Will you try the Lee neck sizing die?
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

    Better living through chemistry (I'm a chemist)

    You can piddle with the puppies, or run with the wolves...

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitroman View Post
    I don't think anyone at anytime has to explain what they want to do to anyone. If it trips your trigger to build this thing, then do it.

    As for hyper-fast projectiles: the only rifle I will hunt with will be one that fires a bullet at 2650 fps or less. My 8x60S, 9x57, 8x57, 7x57, 7.62x51, .500 A-Square, or .375 Weatherby will never be loaded faster than that. I hunt for meat, not trophies. Those hyper-velocity projectiles blast the meat into mush, and vaporized lead saturates the area of the wound.

    If I were going to build a rifle like this, I would be exclusively using a solid copper, bronze, or other alloyed material, but not lead, unless it was for target shooting purposes.

    It all depends on what someone wants to do, and the preferences of the individual. If you want to hunt with this thing, by all means do so. I hope you catch all the animals you desire. I cannot picture myself using this rifle, because in my part of the world, long shots are very rare. Only one fellow I know of has shot an animal farther than 300 yards. Everyone else I know the range is usually 100 yards or less, with 75 yards the norm. For me, two moose within 35 feet, and a caribou 50 feet, and drove past a swimming brown bear this summer at about 15 feet (way too close).

    Again, it depends on the desire of the owner.

    I want to see this cartridge once you have it all formed up. I think your barrel, if you aren't going to use the factory barrel, should be >26" in length to take advantage of the powder capacity, and make it on the heavy side to help as much as possible to make it a bug-holer.

    Ok, just saw the other thread. After you shoot the re-chambered barrel out, then apply the above. Man, that is a sexy beast, long neck though. Will you try the Lee neck sizing die?
    Hey good post Nitroman. Now I know there are a lot of opinions about rifles and cartridges and we all have some. We also have our theroies and I am certainly not saying the 25-300 is the best of anything, because there is no such thing as the best with any cartridge since there are so many varibles that make up the whole of any given cartridge. I am using a 26" barrel and do agree with you that it at least needs to be this length. I am going to start with 80grs of RL-25 and work up because that is what the smith and others use but I think H870 and other powders of this class might work as well. I was going to only neck size after firing and now I am curious why you mentioned the Lee neck sizing die. If you would comment on this I would appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  4. #4

    Default

    A good friend built a 6mm-300 wildcat last year and pretty well had to stay right at max loads to get accuracy that meant a darn thing out at long range. He's up to 400 rounds now, and accuracy is going south for his long range shooting. He expects to be looking for a new barrel before the year is out. But he's happy as a pig in slop and willing to buy the new barrel.

    But listening to him is kinda like those bumper stickers you see once in a while "Please God, Let There Be Another Pipeline. I Promise Not to Waste the Money This Time." He says he shot the first barrel way too much just messing around because it was fun to shoot. He PROMISED his wife he won't shoot the next barrel so much.

    Watchyerbackside with the new toy. Don't go too low on your starting loads, and don't have too much fun shooting it unless you've already budgeted for a replacement barrel.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    A good friend built a 6mm-300 wildcat last year and pretty well had to stay right at max loads to get accuracy that meant a darn thing out at long range. He's up to 400 rounds now, and accuracy is going south for his long range shooting. He expects to be looking for a new barrel before the year is out. But he's happy as a pig in slop and willing to buy the new barrel.

    But listening to him is kinda like those bumper stickers you see once in a while "Please God, Let There Be Another Pipeline. I Promise Not to Waste the Money This Time." He says he shot the first barrel way too much just messing around because it was fun to shoot. He PROMISED his wife he won't shoot the next barrel so much.

    Watchyerbackside with the new toy. Don't go too low on your starting loads, and don't have too much fun shooting it unless you've already budgeted for a replacement barrel.
    You know BrownBear you are so right about not starting to low with the slow burning powder. I wrote the gunsmith who has this cartridge and shoots it and he said the following:

    "Anywhere from 1500 super hot loads to maybe about 3-4k on mild rounds. However it maybe still fine at 2k hot loads. I don't know. It should be pretty close to the standard .257WBY. Those are usually stoked pretty good and the free bore in the throat is the same with both cases and is the same distance from the case mouth on both. One is just an ordinary .257WBY and yours is one that is on steroids. Mine is still good after hundreds of rounds and still doing it's thing."




    Now that said, I will be watching how much I shoot. I will develope loads for hunting and when I find what I want that will be the end of experimenting and shooting for a load, except for a short practice and scope check every once in a while. Good advise, thanks.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    Yes, I can hear it coming but with 3800 plus pounds of energy and a tough bullet just about anything I want to shoot it will kill and the hydrostatic shock will be phenomenal. The hydrostatic shock will be so great in it's hydraulic force that it will cause the blood to flow backwards and stop the heart if the heart is not what I actually hit. It will devastate what it hits and if this really works out it will be a for real one shot killer. With my calculations of hydrostatic shock at these velocities producing such a great hydraulic force the bullet could be placed anywhere in the main part of the body of the animal and still kill him quickly.
    I'm not a biologist or a medical expert, but blood doesn't flow backwards unless you have a serious valve problem. Do you have any documented medical/biological evidence to support this theory? Are you advocating gut shooting animals? I know animals die this way, especially if the liver is hit, but there is no way I could ever advocate shooting an animal in the guts. Are you saying an animal shot in the guts is going to die as a result of a stopped heart? In total medical ignorance, I would postulate that an animal shot in the guts would die from damage to organs (especially the liver), blood vessels, and damage to body tissue causing loss of bodily functions. I'm rather skeptical that lethal hydraulic shock to the heart (on the opposite side of the diaphragm, and separated by airspace and other organs) could be caused by a bullet to the guts. Is there anything other than anecdotal evidence and theory to show that I'm wrong?

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by akav8r View Post
    I'm not a biologist or a medical expert, but blood doesn't flow backwards unless you have a serious valve problem. Do you have any documented medical/biological evidence to support this theory? Are you advocating gut shooting animals? I know animals die this way, especially if the liver is hit, but there is no way I could ever advocate shooting an animal in the guts. Are you saying an animal shot in the guts is going to die as a result of a stopped heart? In total medical ignorance, I would postulate that an animal shot in the guts would die from damage to organs (especially the liver), blood vessels, and damage to body tissue causing loss of bodily functions. I'm rather skeptical that lethal hydraulic shock to the heart (on the opposite side of the diaphragm, and separated by airspace and other organs) could be caused by a bullet to the guts. Is there anything other than anecdotal evidence and theory to show that I'm wrong?
    First when I said main body shot I meant in the chest area, I should have made that clearer. It has nothing to do with biologist or a medical expert, and nothing to do with what you said that blood doesn't flow backwards unless you have a serious valve problem. It is a matter of physics, hydraulics, that fluid under pressure produces great hydrualic forces. When the bullet enters the chest cavity the force of its forward motion due to velocity is so great that fluid including the blood would be force in the opposite direction therefore flowing back into and against the heart causing it to stop or brust open or worse come completly apart and therefore bring a quick death. Your own comments were anecdotal evidence and theory.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  8. #8

    Default

    Some more food for thought, There is a condition caused by massive blunt force trauma and massive blast injuries called Traumatic Asphyxia. What happens, as I understand it, is that the blood vessels are compressed so rapidly that the venous blood actually does flow in reverse due to the compression of the blood vessels. Capillaries in the lungs burst and the valves in the heart and in the veinous system are either inverted or torn away. This causes a total disruption of blood flow to and from the heart and lungs. You Die. Of course there are varing degrees due to the amount of force applied. The heart stops due to lack of oxygen.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  9. #9

    Default Whew!

    You had me scared for a minute! I read that Roy Weatherby himself intentionally gut shot animals in an attempt to prove his high velocity theories. I jumped to conclusions as a result of your "Weatherby-ness" and main part of the body comment.

  10. #10

    Default

    No, you were absolutely right on not making a gut shot and I would never make a gut shot on purpose. I like Weatherby rifles and cartriges and wildcats off of them but I do not condone all Roy did, believed or thought. That said, he sure gave us a lot. But you made me reach back in my mind and you cleared out some cob webs for sure by making me respond and I thought that was great.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  11. #11
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    Beartooth, I was referring to the Lee Precision collet neck sizer. It uses a collet to squeeze the case neck against a mandrel for sizing.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

    Better living through chemistry (I'm a chemist)

    You can piddle with the puppies, or run with the wolves...

  12. #12

    Default 25-300 Weath

    Beartooth:

    Layne Simpson basically covered all the details of your cartridge in the 257 STW.

    Might want to see if his old articles are still floating around the web.Save you a lot of time and powder.

  13. #13

    Default This may help

    257 STW LOAD DATA
    BULLET POWDER VELOCITY DATA SOURCE
    (Type) (Grs.)
    Hornady 75-gr. HP RL-22 85.0 4,036 L. Simpson
    Nosler 85-gr. B-Tip RL-22 83.0 3,914 L. Simpson
    Nosler 100-gr. Partition H1000 86.0 3,709 L. Simpson
    Nosler 115-gr. B-Tip AA-8700 92.0 3,546 L. Simpson
    Sierra 117-gr. SBT AA-8700 89.0 3,507 L. Simpson
    Nosler 120-gr. Partition H1000 82.0 3,466 L. Simpson

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7STW View Post
    Beartooth:

    Layne Simpson basically covered all the details of your cartridge in the 257 STW.

    Might want to see if his old articles are still floating around the web.Save you a lot of time and powder.

    Thanks, that is great.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  15. #15

    Default

    Checked with Michael and he got the 100gr to over 4000 with only 82.5gr. RL-25. He is trying the H870 at this time. He tumbled TSX in moly if max is required. He said, "I don't think 4100+ is out of the question and more of the case can be utilized. I think I'll try this soon. The .257STW gets 4050 with the 100gr TSX in a 26" tube. It has just slightly less case capacity and more importainly,,, Isn't freebored like a weatherby.


    When I am able to get all the questions answered that I have been asked and range work done over the Chrono I will post again. I will work from known loads and work up. I will not start where anyone has gone or ended up. So give me some time and in a few months I promise I will come back with final results.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  16. #16

    Default

    To answer a pm about the TSX at these velocities, I have not checked with barnes and the only info I have are the kills made by this round in the hands of a few who were developing it and so far the wounds from the TSX have been devastating. The bullet on kills at the present is not loosing it's petals and therefore not actting like a solid. More has to be done and when we finally get it done with some real chrono time and also field evidence from kills, I will post the results. It will be interesting to see if it turns out anywhere close to my expectations. One thing that I do not live on is my expectations because they can really be a disappointment at times. All of your advice and imput is certainly taken and I am sure there are some things that I am naive on since this is uncharted ground that I am walking on. I do want to thank you though for your imput and I will give it my attention as I develope loads. Now I am even more curious as to how this will all turn out. Thanks for your candor and honesty and I will post the results as soon as I get them.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  17. #17

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    Just a little extra as I wait for the opportunity to begin testing.
    Stopping power is a colloquial term used to describe the ability of a particular weapon to stop the actions of an individual by means of penetrating ballistic injury. This term is not a euphemism for lethality; it refers only to a weapon's ability to incapacitate quickly, regardless of whether death ultimately results. Some theories of stopping power involve concepts such as "energy transfer" and "hydrostatic shock", although there is disagreement about the importance of these effects. Obviously, stopping power is related to the physical properties of the bullet and the effects it has on its target, but the issue is complicated and not easily studied. Critics contend that the importance of "one-shot stop" statistics is overstated, pointing out that most gun encounters do not involve a "shoot once and see how the target reacts" situation.

    Most ballistic and forensic experts claim that "stopping power" does not exist, especially with handgun bullets. Stopping is caused not by the force of the bullet, but by the damaging effects of the bullet which are typically a loss of blood, and with it, blood pressure. More immediate effects can result when a bullet damages the central nervous system such as the spine or brain.

    And............. questioned theory
    Martin Fackler (and others) claim that the theory of hydrostatic shock has been conclusively disproven and that the assertion that a pressure wave plays a role in injury or incapacitation is a myth. Tissue behaves similarly enough to water that a sonic pressure wave can be created by a bullet impact, generating pressures in excess of 100 atmospheres.

    A lithotriptor, which commonly used to break up kidney stones, produces sonic pressure waves of approximately 5 times the amplitude of those caused by many handgun bullets. Up to 2000 such pressure waves are used in a single treatment session. Martin Fackler argued that since a lithotriptor produces no damage to soft tissues whatsoever, this is conclusive proof that the ballistic pressure waves cannot damage tissue either. However, Dr. Fackler was simply wrong in his claim that lithotriptor waves do not damage tissue.

    Recent work published by scientists M Courtney and A Courtney provides compelling support for the role of a ballistic pressure wave in incapacitation and injury. This work builds upon the earlier works of Suneson et al. where the researchers implanted high-speed pressure transducers into the brain of pigs and demonstrated that a significant pressure wave reaches the brain of pigs shot in the thigh.These scientists observed neural damage in the brain caused by the distant effects of the ballistic pressure wave originating in the thigh.

    The results of Suneson et al. were confirmed and expanded upon by a later experiment in dogs which "confirmed that distant effect exists in the central nervous system after a high-energy missile impact to an extremity. A high-frequency oscillating pressure wave with large amplitude and short duration was found in the brain after the extremity impact of a high-energy missile . . ." Wang et al. observed significant damage in both the hypothalamus and hippocampus regions of the brain due to remote effects of the ballistic pressure wave.

    Martin Fackler and others who say that hydrostatic shock does not produce hydrualic force in the form of shock waves that do impact, damage and even kill an animal struct by a bullet were wrong.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  18. #18

    Default Oh, yeah

    Beartooth, I am so glad you posted another thread on one of your cartridge experiments. It is good that you have the wherewithall and genuine enthusiasm to go forward with such exotic and scientifically expansive concepts. You are truly a pioneer in conceptual ballistics. I actually enjoy reading your posts somewhat in the same way I like reading Philip Wanker's works on the Basics of Euclidian Water Buckling Experiments Involving Applying the Centripital Forces of Ferris Wheels. Quite deep actually. By the way, unless I'm mistaken H870 is discontinued.

  19. #19

    Default

    mauserboy, thank you, what I do is for fun and is so much fun. I sure hope this works out. But even if it did not work out it will be a lot of fun and I will have learned and gained much. I do believe the 25-300 with the right bullet will be a devastating killer. Tissue, obviously, is 98% H20. In laymans terms, drop a stone into a pool and you cause harmonic disruption to the liquid, which eventually regains it's original form. Hydrostatic = "water" + "stationary". Throw a stone into a pool and it causes more disruption i.e. shock. Tissue expands then regains it's form. The faster the projectile, the greater the expansion and subsequent contraction. The faster the projectile, the more the liquid is displaced. Since animals are also filled with several hundred miles of nerve tissue, when they get displaced, electronic impules go haywire which ultimately affects the brain, heart, lung and any other organ controlled by involuntary muscles. Can't wait to field test it on game.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  20. #20
    New member George's Avatar
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    Default testing?

    I certainly hope you don't plan on using game animals for such experimental testing or long range TARGET practice for that matter. The idea to test such theories as..... "shoot an animal somewhere (intentionally or to make up for errors of judgement and accurate bullet placement) in a body part, like an extremity, paunch, butt, leg, jaw, etc. with a super high velocity projectile then expect it to fall over dead"... is not worthy a response. Then again you may not be able to tell if you hit, hit poorly or missed completely at such long ranges.... out of sight out of mind I guess... much less be able to tell exactly where the animal was standing for examination and follow up tracking. Oh, I've heard a lot of explanations such as, "clean miss" or "must have been just a flesh wound". The effects of compression wave, hydrostatic shock are very real. But, the rest of the stuff I'm reading is junk and will and has led to big problems and lost animals. Am I missing something?

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