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Thread: Bed first or true action>?

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    Member rimfirematt's Avatar
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    Default Bed first or true action>?

    Im having some accuracy issues on a gun. I suspect a bedding problem, but Im sure the action is suspect too.

    So should I bed first and if that doesnt work have the action trued? Will bedding it first affect how the action sits in the stock after it is trued.

    Im just not sure if action truing affects how the action origanally sat in the stock.

  2. #2

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    I'd suspect the bedding or the barrel before the action, depending on what it is. With older guns or hi vel calibers, sometimes all you need to do is get the gosh darned copper out of the bore using some kind of good copper solvent. Bedding can usually be cleaned up pretty easily, whether simply free floating the barrel or also glass bedding the action. If it's a Ruger M77, something as simple as relieving the stock around the angled front action bolt can turn a scatter gun into a tack driver.

    If by "action truing" you mean what we used to call action tuning, it should not affect how it sits in the stock.

    No idea what you're shooting, but my priotity list would read like this:

    1. REALLY clean the bore.
    2. Free float the barrel.
    3. Relieve the front action bolt if it's a M77.
    4. Bed the action.
    5. Recrown the barrel.
    6. Replace the barrel.
    7. Sell the rifle.
    8. If you can't sell it, then true the action.

  3. #3
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    I bought a 77 Ruger used one time for a friend in 30-06. The guy I bought the rifle from told me after I bought it that t one time it was the most accurate rifle he had ever owned, and for some reason just did not shoot as well anymore.

    Any time you have a rifle that all of a sudden stops grouping, the first place to look is the barrel. When I got the rifle into the shop here at the house, I ran my bore scope in and found the problem. Years of embedded crud.

    It took three days of soaking and scubaing that barrel to get the crud out.
    Montana Extreme works well for this operation. Other products I've tried are not as fast. Folks usually ask how do you know when you've got all the copper out? Easy answer is when you don't see any more blue on the patches. Make sure you get all the bore solvent out when you are done. Use 91% Isopropyl Alcohol and patch out the bore, dry with dry patch.

    Before you test fire for a group, make sure you run one damp patch of oil down the bore.

    If you are still having a problem, then it's time to look further.

    If that does not work, gives the forum another try after you get the barrel clean and try to group it again. Good luck!
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimfirematt View Post
    Im having some accuracy issues on a gun. I suspect a bedding problem, but Im sure the action is suspect too.

    So should I bed first and if that doesnt work have the action trued? Will bedding it first affect how the action sits in the stock after it is trued.

    Im just not sure if action truing affects how the action origanally sat in the stock.

    I have had several rifle that had the "action trued" and if there was an improvement I did not notice it. Save your money and look elsewhere. It may be helpful if you would post what your accuracy problems are.
    What size are your groups?
    Any stringing of the shots in any direction?
    Did the rifle once shoot good?
    Tennessee

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    Member Darreld Walton's Avatar
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    Default Gotta know a couple things...

    When you mention that the accuracy went away, what, exactly, is the rifle doing now? If the rifle is stringing shots vertically, or horizontally, or just giving a shotgun-like pattern means different approaches to correcting the problem!
    Besides nasty bores, perhaps the single biggest problem that I've seen is action screws working loose. I don't mean bumping it and having the screws fall on the ground loose, but where they just work loose enough to let the receiver and barrel squirm around in the wood.
    When you're taking a break letting that solvent work, take your well-fitting screw driver, and give those screws a cinch.
    If those don't help, there's some other things to try, like making sure that your sights or scope are secure, and not damaged.
    Most times, having an action 'trued' means that the surfaces are brought up to snuff, and that doesn't necessarily mean that the exterior will be modified. Truing usually involves making sure that the receiver bore where the bolt rides is straight, that the bolt lugs are on the same plane, and that the bolt locking lugs in the receiver match, or are sometimes lapped in together. A lot of times, the barrel is pulled, and the front of the receiver face is squared as well, and sometimes, the barrel set back after it's squared up, and a fresh chamber reamed.
    Some fellas also check to make sure that the top of the receiver where the scope mounts go is 'right'.
    Not likely that truing the action will change your bedding.
    For the cost, there's a lot of other things to check first!
    Last edited by Darreld Walton; 11-05-2007 at 04:15. Reason: .

  6. #6
    Member rimfirematt's Avatar
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    Been on my death bed, but feeling a little better now.

    Gun is a m77 mark II in 204 ruger. Its the ultralitht one with the thin little barrel.

    I have free floated the stock, but not the angled action screw. Ill check that out.

    Groups are pretty much open, doesnt seem to be stringing either way.

    I suspect some handloading might clean the groups up as well.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    I've heard the crud is a foot, I sure hope you get back among the living soon!

    One of the fun guns downsides aka, small bore center fire rifle, is, the barrels really have to be kept-ed after shooting to keep the copper down. I would not let the bore go beyond 20 rounds before it was cleaned. It is vary unusual to find a small bore that does not shoot pretty well do to the low recoil.

    The .204 requires the use of a .17 cleaning rod, to be safe, with a good bore guide.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    New member George's Avatar
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    Default small bore accuracy drop off

    Big Al has hit it dead on again... at least as a first attempt at bringing the accuracy back.... also the least expensive way to start. The 204 lies somewhere between the 17 Rem and the 22-250/220 Swift. All that means is that the small bore, high velocity rounds are notorious about bore fouling and must be kept clean to realize best accuracy. Quality 17 cleaning rods are the ticket for not only 17 cal and 20 cal bores but also for the 22 rimfires. Working up accurate reloads would be a logical next step then on to action truing, bedding, etc. after the easy first step of cleaning. Good luck!

  9. #9

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    Back when the 17 Remington first appeared I jumped on the bandwagon right away. With the original factory ammo you could barely get a box through it before copper fouling caused groups to EXPLODE from around an inch to 6-8 inches.

    Hornady bullets were better, but on a long day of shooting rockchucks and ground squirrels, you basically had to bring along a good cleaning outfit and stop to do a thorough clean several times on a busy day of shooting.

    Any of that starting to sound familiar?

    How many rounds have you put through the 204?

    There's so little recoil in the caliber that I doubt the angled action bolt would have set back, but it never hurts to check.

    I'm willing to bet though, that a good copper solvent is going to produce lots of bright green patches from that bore before you get a clean patch after a passs.

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    long time lurker here. first time poster.

    Just chiming in to agree on the barrel cleaning recommendation. I recently picked up a .270 off a used gunrack for my son. Didn't have any idea how it would shoot. It was a bit of an impulse purchase - a nice looking pre-64 Model 70 that (judging by the Ser #) had been made within a couple weeks of the -06 model 70 I inherited from my Dad.

    Well turns out that .270 shot lousy. Couldn't get it under 3" at 100yds off the bench. Mostly 5 shots were over 4". Decided to give the bore a cleaning with Uncle Mikes super duper ammonia based solvent. Wow! Copper galore.

    Bottomline: turned that .270 into a 1 1/2" shooter at 100yds in about 15 minutes.

    I read somewhere recently that Roy Weatherby would receive "shot out" rifles back for re-barreling. He'd give the barrels a thorough clean before doing anything else. Story goes, most of them turned back into shooters with just the proper maintenance.

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    *edit: make that Butch's bore solvent

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    I have whats left of a case of Butch's bore Shine cleaner, that's in quarter size. I give these away to visitors that need solvent. It's better than most solvents.

    If you are needing to buy more, I highly recommend Montana Extreme.

    If you will make a trip to the drug store and buy a bottle of 91% Isopropyl Alcohol. Buy yourself the proper size batches from Brownells by the 1000 count, you will with the proper size rod (jag tip, no slot).Will be well on your way to a clean machine.

    By accident one day while breaking in a new barrel I had forgotten to bring my secret formula along for break in. Now I live about 26 miles each way from where I was shooting, not wanting to have to pick-up and travel all over again, I had found a bottle of Break free.

    Now a proper break-in for a good custom barrel requires a little bit of cleaning between shots, So after scrubbing the bore out and in preparation I ran an oiled patch through my clean bore.

    Hold the phone, The patch did not come out clean, rather it came out streaked black, what the.., I repeated the oiled patch again with Break Free, again BLACK. To make a long story short, this turned out to be the fastest barrel break in I ever had. I felt that a little Twilight music should have been playing in the back ground.

    When I got back home I started to pull down rifles, that I knew where put away clean. Folks, I don't care what you think you got clean, just wait till you run a patch down the bore with that Break Free and be prepared for a shock.

    I can not but believe that you are getting carbon out, that you just knew could in no way be left in your barrels.

    I've got a vary nice old model 70 Super Grade in .257 Roberts, that I don't shoot anymore because I wanted to save the barrel, It looked like she was getting a little on the dark side. I don't remember how many patches of Break Free it took, but that bore is no longer on the dark side.

    Just something to think about!
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    If the accuracy went off, and you haven't shot out the rifle, then fouling is likely the culprit. I use JB compound and Barnes CR-10, and it still takes alot of elbow grease to a barrel truly squeky no copper clean. Also Ruger barrels are a bit rough.

    I know everyone says to freefloat barrels for best accuracy, but I know someone who's gunny knowledge I respect that says skinny barrels work best when full length bedded.

    Action truing is the absolute last thing I'd consider having done on a gun that has so-so accuracy, and I'd only have an action trued if fitting a new top grade barrel. To get the best accuracy from a top grade barrel, action truing makes sense.

    When a rifle has suspect accuracy there are several things I check in roughly this order:

    Barrel fouling
    Action screw tension
    Scope and scope mounting
    Action bedding/barrel channel
    Barrel crown
    Barrel, if the other stuff didn't work it's time to put on a new one

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    Member rimfirematt's Avatar
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    I just got the gun. It supposed to only have had 50 shots down the tube. I used that foaming wipe out stuff in it. My patches came out black, not blue. Ill give the break free a shot.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    I think the copper remover is just that, the Break Free will dead sure get the black out, but for the copper, you'll have to use a copper remover.

    50 rounds is a lot of shooting to a small barrel without getting it clean. This does really sound like that's the place that 's giving you the headaches, that and being sick.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    If the accuracy went off, and you haven't shot out the rifle, then fouling is likely the culprit. I use JB compound and Barnes CR-10, and it still takes alot of elbow grease to a barrel truly squeky no copper clean. Also Ruger barrels are a bit rough.

    I know everyone says to freefloat barrels for best accuracy, but I know someone who's gunny knowledge I respect that says skinny barrels work best when full length bedded.

    Action truing is the absolute last thing I'd consider having done on a gun that has so-so accuracy, and I'd only have an action trued if fitting a new top grade barrel. To get the best accuracy from a top grade barrel, action truing makes sense.

    When a rifle has suspect accuracy there are several things I check in roughly this order:

    Barrel fouling
    Action screw tension
    Scope and scope mounting
    Action bedding/barrel channel
    Barrel crown
    Barrel, if the other stuff didn't work it's time to put on a new one
    I'm with Paul on this, in this order. If the action needs work, you may just need a new rifle.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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