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Thread: cryogenic treatment

  1. #1

    Default cryogenic treatment

    Has anyone ever had any cryogenic treatment done to there rifles or know anyone that has? If so I would like to hear your thoughts. I do know that race cars and military aircraft us it in different area for different types of treatment while being made. Even if you do not know anyone that has ever used it I would enjoy hearing some comments back from you guys that work on guns a lot.

    Enlcosed is an article from the National Firearms Association about it.

    Click here: National Firearms Association - Cryogenic Treatment of Rifle Barrels

  2. #2

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    It's pretty common for match rifles, and for a while it was quite a fad for hunting rifles. A bud of mine is a pusher, and I've shot a couple of his guns before and after.

    It did make a difference in his groups, shaving a a quarter of an inch or so off a rifle that was already doing around an inch at 100 yards. 25% improvement can be a big deal in a competition bench gun. But in a moose rifle?

    He feels better for having it done to his hunting rifles, so if he's happy what can be wrong with it?

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Don't waste your money. It only works for tool steel. I called Crucible Steel and talked to them about this. Seeing as how they are the major supplier for barrel making steel in the U.S. I thought they would know.

    Save your money, it flat just does not work, contrary to what you see advertised.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    It was some what common among benchrest shooters in the 90's, but they all learned better. Nobody made the claim it made for a better shooting barrel after the first flurry of advertising. Next big lie was it made the barrels last longer.

    The total fact is cyro, only works for tool steel. Call the Crucible service center and ask any metallurgist. I called the Texas division.

    I clearly remember the response I got when I asked, then why are people doing cyro to rifle barrels. The answer was they did know, because it does nothing. In fact if you read Machinery Handbook about this process, you will learn that it takes certain components in steel for this to work. No rifle barrel steel contains these components!

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    Maybe with the cold weather stainless barrels splitting thing, you could get them to fire the rifle when it is really cold. If it passed the cryo-fire test,...
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    I have not tried it. A friend of mine, who is a better shot that I, swears by it. He has all his rifle treated. He has not mentioned an increase in barrel life but in terms of accuracy improvement, he is a true believer! He uses Remington 700 stainless actions and Shilen match barrels. Maybe it is only in his head but his groups are smaller than mine. J.

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    Member Dan in Alaska's Avatar
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    I used a Krieger barrel for my .338-06 back in 1997. At that time, Krieger cryo-treated every barrel blank before machining, because they felt it made the metal easier to machine. For an extra $40, if I remember correctly, you could get the barrel cryo-treated a second time after machining. I paid for the extra cryo-treatment.

    Did I gain anything? I doubt it. The rifle shoots well, but I think the quality of the barrel has more to do with its accuracy that than the cryo-treatment.

    I also find it very telling that there isn't even a mention of cryo-treatment on Krieger's website anymore. Evidently, cryo-treatment is just another fad that never substantiated the hype.

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    Dan: you hit the nail right on the head. This fad passed rapidly among people that had to re barrel ever year due to having shot them out in competition.

    What kills me about this and other debates is the refusal of people to get on the phone and call the people that know the most about the subject. This was exactly what I did when I first heard that people were having this done to rifle barrels.

    Most machine shop supply companies offer a cyro service for their customers to harden their tooling. This has been common for years, when I saw this happening with rifle barrels I was shocked. That's when I called Crucible Service center and talked to a metallurgist.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    I personaly lump the barrel Cryogenic treatment crowd in with the those folks that wear copper bracelets or magnetic belts to aleviate arthitis pain every single one I know swears by it and wouldnt have it any other way regardless of the lack of documented proof or scientific data to support the claims. I guess if it gives you a warm fuzzy in your tummy to have a cryogenicly treated barrel then go for it! But to get the most accuracy from you rifle, you should also wear a copper bracelet, carry a pocket full of crystals and a magnetic head band

    My barrels get Cryogenicly treated every Feburary...........along with my fingers and toes while calling varmints

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    nother study provided decent evidence to support the use of magnets for [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]knee [COLOR=blue ! important]pain[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]. In research carried out at the Institute of Theoretical Physics and Advanced Studies for Biophysical Research in Jupiter, Florida, individuals with osteoarthritic, painful knees received magnetic-field treatments eight times during a two-week period. Each treatment consisted of eight six-minute exposures to the magnetic field (48 total minutes), thus providing a total of 384 (8 x 48) minutes of magnetotherapy during the study. During treatments of control subjects, the magnetic fields were turned off, and the research was carried out in a randomised, double-blind manner, with 176 patients involved (“Low-Amplitude, Extremely Low Frequency Magnetic Fields for the Treatment of Osteoarthritic Knees: A Double-Blind Clinical Study,” Altern Ther [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]Health[/COLOR][/COLOR] Med, Vol. 7(5), pp. 54-64, 66-69, 2001). The magnetic fields in this study were generated by a Jacobson resonator, and the range of magnetic-field amplitudes was from 2.74 x 10-7 to 3.4 x 10-8 Gauss, with corresponding frequencies of 7.7 to .976 Hz. Each subject rates his/her pain level from 1 (minimal) to 10 (maximal) before and after each treatment and two weeks after treatment. Subjects also recorded their intensity of pain twice daily in a diary for two weeks after the last treatment session (session eight) – upon awakening and just before retiring for the night.


    And the result?
    Somewhat surprisingly for those who believe that magnetotherapy is a bit of a hoax, magnetic-field exposure significantly reduced knee pain. In fact, knee pain was down by 46% in the magnet-therapy group, versus just 8% among the placebo subjects. The researchers concluded that low-amplitude, extremely low frequency magnetic fields are “safe and effective for treating patients with chronic knee pain due to osteoarthritis”.

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    Thumbs up Cryogenic ....

    My brother, the career oriented one, worked for an unnamed government agency, in central America, on the Contra effort...in the early to mid 80's. I talked with him about cryogenic treatment....that was the first time I'd heard of it. He stated that the M60 barrels supplied to the Contras that had been cryo-treated lasted on average 50% longer than the standard, non-cryo'd barrels.

    My pet 330Dakota has been cryo-treated, not for accuracy, but to reduce the rate of throat erosion....the barrel should have a longer prime use life. Only time will tell.

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    I do not believe that there has ever been and M-60 barrel that was shot out, period. All M-60 have stelite liners, the only reason M-60 barrels ever go bad is due to case head separation. The locking lug cam area of the shroud that is used in part to lock the barrel into the receiver gets worn.

    It gets worn from the locking lugs Constance back and forth motion. This cause the the case head not to be fully inside the chamber. At that point case heads separate from the rest of the body of the Ctg.

    I say this having witnessed the old M-16 subsystem on helicopter gunships. This was a pylon mounted system mounted on each side of the bravo and charlie model Huey gunship. each mount was electrically and hydraulic movable and supported Two M-60 per side. Some of these systems fired as many or more than one hundred thousands rounds a day, day in and day out. This was an earlier system before the M-134 mini-guns. By the way, the mini-guns were stelite lined barrels also.

    This was during the transition period of the AH-1C gunships with the TAT-102 and the later mini-gun systems.

    Sorry for that walk down memory lane, it's been a long time.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreginAlaska
    nother study provided decent evidence to support the use of magnets for
    Quote Originally Posted by GreginAlaska
    [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]knee [COLOR=blue ! important]pain[/color][/color][/color]. In research carried out at the Institute of Theoretical Physics and Advanced Studies for Biophysical Research in Jupiter, Florida, individuals with osteoarthritic, painful knees received magnetic-field treatments eight times during a two-week period. Each treatment consisted of eight six-minute exposures to the magnetic field (48 total minutes), thus providing a total of 384 (8 x 48) minutes of magnetotherapy during the study. During treatments of control subjects, the magnetic fields were turned off, and the research was carried out in a randomised, double-blind manner, with 176 patients involved (“Low-Amplitude, Extremely Low Frequency Magnetic Fields for the Treatment of Osteoarthritic Knees: A Double-Blind Clinical Study,” Alternative Theraputics Medicine, Vol. 7(5), pp. 54-64, 66-69, 2001). The magnetic fields in this study were generated by a Jacobson resonator, and the range of magnetic-field amplitudes was from 2.74 x 10-7 to 3.4 x 10-8 Gauss, with corresponding frequencies of 7.7 to .976 Hz. Each subject rates his/her pain level from 1 (minimal) to 10 (maximal) before and after each treatment and two weeks after treatment. Subjects also recorded their intensity of pain twice daily in a diary for two weeks after the last treatment session (session eight) – upon awakening and just before retiring for the night.

    And the result?
    Somewhat surprisingly for those who believe that magnetotherapy is a bit of a hoax, magnetic-field exposure significantly reduced knee pain. In fact, knee pain was down by 46% in the magnet-therapy group, versus just 8% among the placebo subjects. The researchers concluded that low-amplitude, extremely low frequency magnetic fields are “safe and effective for treating patients with chronic knee pain due to osteoarthritis”.



    Just for the record, these two sources of information is akin to asking Mr. Nimrod's best drinking buddy if Mr. Nimrod really made a 250 yard heart shot at the 8 point he got last year with his Belgium Browning using foster slugs!? Not very reliable or unbiased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastwoods View Post


    Just for the record, these two sources of information is akin to asking Mr. Nimrod's best drinking buddy if Mr. Nimrod really made a 250 yard heart shot at the 8 point he got last year with his Belgium Browning using foster slugs!? Not very reliable or unbiased.
    And you know this because...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreginAlaska;
    And you know this because...?


    I read Medical, Chiropractic, and Physiotheraputic journals when I have to put down my reloading books, because I am a chiropractor. There are alot of junk publications out there. Some of my own profession's journals are'nt worth the paper they're written on.

    This is my professional opinion. In my office I would have to know a patient very well before I would be negative about a benign treatment (Hippocrates-first do no harm). When someone has chronic pain, sometimes there is no one magic answer. However, the search for relief is at times in the eye of the beholder. If it seems to work for you, keep using magnets and freezing your barrels.

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    I never in my life have been to a chiropractor, but I once suggested to a fellow that he should give one a try He was so crippled up he could barely walk. To put it mildly he was made whole again and walked normal after years of problems that no MD ever addressed. It was the most dramatic change in a Man I've ever seen.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Member GreginAlaska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastwoods View Post

    I read Medical, Chiropractic, and Physiotheraputic journals when I have to put down my reloading books, because I am a chiropractor. There are alot of junk publications out there. Some of my own profession's journals are'nt worth the paper they're written on.

    This is my professional opinion. In my office I would have to know a patient very well before I would be negative about a benign treatment (Hippocrates-first do no harm). When someone has chronic pain, sometimes there is no one magic answer. However, the search for relief is at times in the eye of the beholder. If it seems to work for you, keep using magnets and freezing your barrels.
    I see, ever heard of Robert K Becker? ( I think the middle initial is K anyways). I read that he was able to do surgery on animals using a very powerful electromagnet as anesthesia. I think he was trying to prove that electromagnetic waves could have bad effects.

    I got a good (well not so good for the people like me that have had it) bone problem for you.

    Transient Osteoporosis. Transient being the operative word. That's a weird one.

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    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    I got it!!! I am gonna pull the barrel off my Marlin Guide Gun and get it cryo'd (so it will be as accurate as a 1000 yard bench rest rifle and last as long as an M1 Abrams barrel), have the lever and trigger replaced with ones made from copper (for the Arthritis in my fingers), and install the biggest magnet I can fit into the butt stock (to ease the pain in my sholder from shooting heavy loads), then I am gonna bed in a bunch of used co2 cylinders re-filled with helium into the for-arm (so it will be as light as a "mountain rifle") Its going to be AWSOM

    Happy shootin! And I am just hacking on ya about the magnets and cryo, if it works for ya, then march on brother!

  19. #19
    Member Eastwoods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreginAlaska
    I see, ever heard of Robert K Becker? ( I think the middle initial is K anyways). I read that he was able to do surgery on animals using a very powerful electromagnet as anesthesia. I think he was trying to prove that electromagnetic waves could have bad effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreginAlaska

    I got a good (well not so good for the people like me that have had it) bone problem for you.

    Transient Osteoporosis. Transient being the operative word. That's a weird one.


    Never heard of Robert Becker.

    Transient osteporosis of the hip (femoral head &/or femoral neck) is idiopathic (unknown cause), and mostly appears in middle aged men and pregnant women. I have never seen a case of it in 15 years of practice. I hope yours resolved with no complications, as is the case with most. I would certainly applaud the doctor who diagnosed it. Well done. Unfortunately, no real treatment, except palliative. I hope you did'nt miss a hunting season because of it. We have a finite number of seasons, I hate to hear of someone who has to miss one.

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    Member GreginAlaska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alangaq View Post
    I got it!!! I am gonna pull the barrel off my Marlin Guide Gun and get it cryo'd (so it will be as accurate as a 1000 yard bench rest rifle and last as long as an M1 Abrams barrel), have the lever and trigger replaced with ones made from copper (for the Arthritis in my fingers), and install the biggest magnet I can fit into the butt stock (to ease the pain in my sholder from shooting heavy loads), then I am gonna bed in a bunch of used co2 cylinders re-filled with helium into the for-arm (so it will be as light as a "mountain rifle") Its going to be AWSOM

    Happy shootin! And I am just hacking on ya about the magnets and cryo, if it works for ya, then march on brother!
    Ya, but it might be bad on your credit card magnetic strip...oh wait, that could be good for your finances...one more benefit of magnetism.

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