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  1. #1
    New member akhunter02's Avatar
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    Default Opinions

    Im looking for some opinions related to the draw system. Under the current system, if you draw a permit you can either hunt with that permit or do a general season hunt. For example, I drew a cow permit for the Delta area this year. I did a mid Sept float hunt for moose first, I didnt score so went to Delta to harvest a moose in Oct. Basicly I used the Cow permit as a backup plan, which worked great for me.

    What do you all think if the current system was changed to were if you draw a permit that is your hunt. For example, if I draw a FMA cow permit, that is my moose hunt for the season. Thats not to say if you dont score during the permit dates that you couldnt try some where else later.

    I was thinking about the number of permits that are issued each year but never get used because many draws are used simply as a backup plan.

    I thought that would stop a lot of people from putting in for pemits as a backup, giving others who do apply a better chance of drawing those types of permit.

    Dont get me wrong, using it as a backup plan has worked great for me over the years, Ive drawn 3 moose permits in 3 years, but dont think that was the intent for these permits, not intened to be someones backup plan.

    Just curious of what you guys thought.

  2. #2
    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Thumbs up I'd buy that..

    I'm sure there's a downside someone will point out but it sounds good on paper! I'd be all for it. Also you know it may have the side benefit of fewer hunters during the general season hunts. (IE if you didn't do your early moose and just went on the permit.... one less fella in the field) Few things are as irritating as someone getting a drawing permit and not hunting it. Just robbing the experience from someone else. Or when someone asks "can someone tell me anything about this area I just drew?" I digress...... sounds like a good idea.

  3. #3
    Member mod elan's Avatar
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    I believe all drawing hunts need to be like the Nunivak Muskox hunt. You need to confirm ahead of time that you will actually do the hunt. If you're not going to hunt then it goes to the next person on the list. The downside might be the number of permits may go down because F&G may factor all this into the number of permits allowed. They might figure a certain percentage won't hunt and of those that do hunt there is a percentage that won't be successful. If all the folks with permits hunt then the success rate also rises and may excede the harvest goal resulting in fewer permits in the future. This is my theory. If anyone knows if this is true or not let us know.

    It really burns me when permit holders don't hunt. Lost opportunity for someone else who really, really wanted it.

  4. #4
    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    Along the lines of what mod elan is saying, I would like to see unsuccessfull applicants given a sequence number, essentially an alternates list. This part should be easy since the draws are computer generated. Then make all drawing permits returnable to the state.

    If you score on your general hunt or if you voluntarily return it, your unused tag is then offered to the next alternate on the list.

  5. #5
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    Its aggravating, I know someone who didn't hunt his bison permit because he was building his vacation cabin :-D. If you're that busy, don't put in for permits.
    I believe also that sheep hunts should be once in a lifetime, and go to a weighted system like others have mentioned, so that every year you put in your odds go up. I know of people who have drawn multiple times for sheep. Not just the ewe hunts either. I'd like to take that kind of luck to Vegas. HH

  6. #6
    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Thumbs up i like the idea...

    if you draw...that's your hunt (for that species)...period. if you draw a koyokuk moose then you may not hunt elsewhere, you draw nelchina you can't hunt the haul road...etc.
    i think that it would cut down both on applicants who can't/won't hunt, and would also make things just a teeny bit less crowded in the general seasons

    but modelan is right, permit numbers would go down if tags were declinable.
    F&G issues 250 kenai 'bou tags for a harvest of around 15 animals. 1/2 the winners don't go, and only 10% of those who do get an animal..
    i think goat and sheep tag numbers would drop big time too.
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
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  7. #7
    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Default <Sigh...> not again...

    Comments like this come up on the forum at least a couple of times a year, and itís getting old. How is it that there are still people out there that think that the current system is either somehow unfair, or somehow not working? I know itís been said before, but obviously it needs said againÖ

    Everybody that puts in for a permit has the same chance at getting drawn as everybody else that applies for that permit. Our system is as fair as it gets. End of story.

    The permit system is set up recognizing that there are a significant number of hunters that get drawn that do not hunt. Somehow eliminating these people from the draw will not raise anyone elseís chances of being drawn. There would simply be a reduction in the number of permits available in order to maintain the desired harvest level. End of story.

    Why do these concepts seem so complicated to so many people?

    If you donít get drawn for a sheep or moose or bear or goat permit, there is still plenty of area that you can hunt with standard harvest tickets or registration permits.

    Quit whining and go hunting!

    --flame on--
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you canít tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

  8. #8
    Member Alaska Gray's Avatar
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    My personal two cents. I would like to see if you win IE moose permit the following year you would not be allowed to apply for any moose draw permits.I think this would not happen. State would lose to much money.

    I agree with the above post earlier on if you do not intend to hunt they will go to a stand by list.

    Point system? How would you get started? This would be a problem Fish and Game would have to deal with? Can they trace records back to see how long you had a hunting Lic? If so base it off that or what? I have drawn permits in the past and this year, but would like to see it revamped in order to give people a better chance to draw a tag...
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  9. #9
    Member jkb's Avatar
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    Point systems are used in several western states. These systems allow for a hunter to plan a hunt several years in advance. You know how many years it will take to get the points to win the permit you want and be ready to have a successful and safe hunt. How many of us have said this when asked where we are going to hunt this year " It depends on if I get any permits" and we find out about most permits less than a month before the season starts.

  10. #10
    Member Alaska Gray's Avatar
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    I would love to know with the point system on the year I should get a permit... This would make planning vacation time from work to hunt allot easier. For me I have to plan just about a year out for my leave.
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    Gary Keller
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  11. #11
    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkb View Post
    Point systems are used in several western states. These systems allow for a hunter to plan a hunt several years in advance. You know how many years it will take to get the points to win the permit you want and be ready to have a successful and safe hunt.
    First, points systems do not allow equal opportunity for all hunters to get a permit.
    Second, in Alaska there are VAST areas in which you can schedule hunts for all but a couple species as far in advance as you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by jkb View Post
    ... we find out about most permits less than a month before the season starts.
    Huh? Each of the permits that I have recieved have arrived several months before the start of the hunts. And since the results are published on-line these days, I can see whether or not I pulled a tag WAY before that.
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you canít tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod in Wasilla View Post
    .......How is it that there are still people out there that think that the current system is either somehow unfair, or somehow not working? I know itís been said before, but obviously it needs said againÖ

    Everybody that puts in for a permit has the same chance at getting drawn as everybody else that applies for that permit. Our system is as fair as it gets. End of story......
    I agree 150%.

    It ain't broke. It doesn't need fixing.

    Screwing around with it will break it.

  13. #13
    Member jkb's Avatar
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    Default July 15th

    The permits this year for everything except sheep and out of state brown bear came out on July 15th (online). The Bow season for moose in unit 14 starts Aug. 10th and rifle season the 20th. If you like the blind luck system that now exists you'll certainlly get to enjoy this system for years to come. The people at ADF&G that I have talked to believe as you in the system of limited entry permits as is. I do enjoy the spirted discussion that this subject brings out.

  14. #14
    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkb View Post
    The permits this year for everything except sheep and out of state brown bear ...and unit 21B, 21D, 21E, 22B, and 24 moose... and unit 7 and 15 goat... came out on July 15th (online).
    ... let me correct that for you... although I understand that the other permits do come out much later. That, I would support changing.
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you canít tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

  15. #15
    New member akhunter02's Avatar
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    Default Rod

    Get off your high horse, first off the opinion I asked for has not been brought up before, I NEVER said the system was unfair, I think it is as fair as it gets. I DONT want a point system, period!!! I want it to stay just the way it is!!!!

    My point was not how the permits were drawn but the fact of many put in with little or no intention to hunt or use it as a back up plan.

    One reason the number of South Kodiak goat permits went up was not because the goat population is growing too fast, it was because people where putting in for the hunt, getting drawn then finding out how much money it was going to coast them to do the hunt. The permit system is used to help manage the harvest, if the permit is not used that effects the over all management plan for that species. It also takes a permit away from someone who really wants it and use it.

  16. #16

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    How would this new proposed system capture the money derived from the Non-Consumptive Would Be "Hunters"? Many of the environmental crowd put in for permits with the true intention of not hunting and depriving individuals the opportunity to do so. Thereby saving a critter and slowing down a process they deplore. F&G needs to continue to collect their money, thus more permits are allocated than the actual desired harvest goals. Such a funny way to do business, but that is what it is to the State, a business or way of getting money to keep the system going and expanding, lots of brother and sister in laws out there need jobs, good State jobs, not retail box store jobs. We either pay the full costs, as hunters or let the others help pay the bills as well.

  17. #17
    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Default No offense intended

    Akhunter, (and anybody else I offended) I apologize for any misunderstanding you may have construed in either the content or attitude of my posts. I honestly try to write as non-caustic as possible. But, without the benefit of body language, tone, or inflection, itís very difficult to have significant written discussion that doesnít get misinterpreted by somebody.

    That being said, my posts specifically referring to a points system were in response to jkbís comments, not yours. My original reply did state my position that our current system was fair. It was an attempt to lay a foundation for the statement that followed:

    The permit system is set up recognizing that there are a significant number of hunters that get drawn that do not hunt. Somehow eliminating these people from the draw will not raise anyone elseís chances of being drawn. There would simply be a reduction in the number of permits available in order to maintain the desired harvest level.


    I just donít agree that limiting the number of entries will put more permits in the hands of those who are committed to hunting that permit. Let me offer an example:

    F&G wants to allow 10 animals to be harvested from a given population. Typical participation rate for this hunt is 50%. Typical success rate for this hunt (for those hunters that actually do hunt) is 25%. So, in order to meet the 10 animal harvest goal, 80 permits must be given out. [ half of the 80 permits = 40 huntersÖ success for a quarter of the hunters = 10 harvestsÖ] And if there are 800 applicants, the draw rate would be 10%.

    Now, if the hunt was limited to only those who were committed to the hunt, there would only be 400 maximum, given the typical participation rate, (and probably less due to the fact that some of those who normally participate really arenít committed to going, they are using it as a back up plan as has been suggested). Also, some of those who would normally apply would also normally apply for other hunts in the same date range. Under the ďcommitted hunterĒ scenario, this would no longer work. You would be forced to commit to a certain hunt in order to apply to that hunt. But, letís say 400 actually applied.

    If 80 permits are issued, there should be 80 hunters. I wonít get into the supposition that committed hunters are going to be better prepared and thus would cause an increase in the success rate for those that do hunt. Instead, Iíll use the previous 25% success rate. Therefore, the harvest would be 25% of 80, or 20 animals. Since this is double the target rate, the number of permits would have to be cut in half, to 40.

    The draw rate would be right back at 10% [40 of 400]. This could be even lower if the other factors listed above were included.

    If there are 200 applicants and the success rate was 50%, the number of permits drawn would drop to 20. Again 10% draw rate.

    300 applicants and 40% harvest rate? 8% draw rate.

    So, tell meÖ how is this a better system?
    Quote Originally Posted by northwestalska
    ... you canít tell stories about the adventures you wished you had done!

  18. #18
    New member akhunter02's Avatar
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    Default Rod

    I see your point, things would change little at best, so not a significant enough change to warrent changing anything.

  19. #19
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Rod - Well said in all of your above posts, and I agree completely. The only substantial change I would like to see is an earlier draw for the spring drawing. Moving all of the permits to the November draw may not be best, as that doesn't allow F&G time to do population surveys and to include results from the current year's hunt into next years projections, but perhaps they could at least move the draw to April instead of May. Even one more month of planning would make a world of difference.

  20. #20

    Default Earlier draw.

    I like the system as it is and I agree with Brian, having an earlier draw. One month and in some cases less time to plan is pretty short notice. To be able to know in June would make a lot of difference for me. .02 worth!

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