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Thread: Proposed Knik River/Jim Creek Regulations

  1. #1
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    Default Proposed Knik River/Jim Creek Regulations

    http://www.dnr.state.ak.us/mlw/krpua/reg_changes/KRPUAregs.pdf

    By and large, it looks like ATV use is pretty much unaffected by the proposed changes to the regs. Mostly the proposed restrictions address abandoning vehicles, burning stuff, and target practice. The only ones that concern me regard interpretations of:

    (4) a person may not operate a vehicle in a manner that results in disturbance of the wetlands or vegetative mat to a depth greater than six inches without prior written authorization from the department;

    (18) a person may not construct, develop, improve or pioneer a road or trail without prior written authorization from the Department;


    I agree with the overall intent of these provisions (don't trash the area with ruts), but wonder how relatively routine ATV activities like getting unstruck from and/or circumventing large mudholes could be interpreted as violating those clauses.

  2. #2

    Default Lets see them all!

    OK, here they are!

    (1) a person may not abandon a vehicle;

    (2) a person may not transport a non-functional vehicle into the area;

    (3) a person may not operate a vehicle in excess of 10,000 pounds curb weight for private or commercial activity without prior written authorization from the department;

    (4) a person may not operate a vehicle in a manner that results in
    disturbance of the wetlands or vegetative mat to a depth greater than six inches without prior written authorization from the department;

    (5) all open fires are subject to the requirements of 11 AAC 95.410; a person may not have an open fire larger than 3 feet in diameter except on open and unvegetated areas at least 100 feet from forested land without prior written authorization from the department;

    (6) a person may not burn, or cause to burn, wooden pallets, a vehicle, structure, household or commercial refuse, construction debris, or non-naturally occurring material;

    (7) a person may not discard or abandon waste, refuse, trash, or any form of litter;

    (8) a person may not place, dump or abandon any hazardous materials including but not limited to those contained within appliances, batteries, automotive fluids and electronic devices;

    (9) a person may not erect or abandon a structure other than a temporary structure authorized under 11 AAC 96;

    (10) a person may not harvest or collect non-timber forest products,(including but not limited to mushrooms, conks, berries, bark, roots) for commercial use without prior written authorization from the department;

    (11) a person may not cut, collect or harvest dead standing or live trees without prior written authorization from the department;

    (12) subject to the provisions of 11 AAC 96.020(a)(5)(E), a person may not erect a camp, structure or facility, whether occupied or un-occupied, for more than 14 consecutive days for private personal use without prior written authorization from the department and must move their camp, structure, or facility and all equipment at least 2 miles away at the end of the 14 day period; a person may not relocate a camp, structure or facility to a site within two miles of the initial site for at least 4 consecutive days (96 consecutive hours);

    (13) a person may not participate in an event, gathering or assembly in excess of 50 people without prior written authorization from the department;

    (14) a person may not discharge a firearm for purposes of target practice at targets made of materials other then wood, paper, clay, or like material, without prior written authorization from the department;

    (15) a person may not discharge an explosive, or similar device without prior written authorization from the Department; a person may not
    discharge a firework;

    (16) except for the purposes of lawful hunting and trapping, a person may not discharge a firearm on or within the following without prior written authorization of the department:
    (A) mile of the Maude Road extension, Old Glenn
    Highway, Knik River Road, Knik Glacier Trail (RST 17), Rippy Trail,
    the bed of the Knik River west of the north-south township line
    between T16N, R3E and T16N, R4E SM., which corresponds to
    Longitude 148 degrees 49 minutes, 08.59 seconds, as depicted on
    a map entitled: Recreational Shooting Restrictions within the
    KRPUA & Knik River SUA, Dated October 9, 2007, and adopted by
    reference; in this section the bed of a river is defined to be between
    the lines of ordinary high water on each side of the water body,
    (B) on the bed of the Knik River west of the north-south
    township line between T16N, R3E and T16N, R4E SM., which
    corresponds to Longitude 148 degrees 49 minutes, 08.59 seconds,
    as depicted on a map entitled: Recreational Shooting Restrictions
    within the KRPUA & Knik River SUA, Dated October 9, 2007.
    (C) on state lands (including waters) on the bed of the Knik
    River within mile of the terminus of the Knik Glacier, or
    (C) mile of a developed facility unless specifically
    designated for the discharge of firearms;

    (17) a person may not harass fish or wildlife resources;

    (18) a person may not construct, develop, improve or pioneer a road or trail without prior written authorization from the Department;

    (19) a person may not damage, vandalize or destroy public property, or property leased or rented by the department or local government.

    (d) For the Knik River Public Use Area, any person who fails to acquire, or
    abide by the terms, conditions or limitations of, a permit required under (b)(1) of this section, register under (b)(2) of this section, or who engages
    in a use or activity prohibited under (c) of this section is subject to citation issued by a department employee duly appointed by the department; a citation issued under this section is subject to any and all fines established by the Superior Court of the State of Alaska.

    Hit the link on SR's post for comment info.
    Personally I don't see many problems here, some details to be sure but I think they are headed in the right direction.
    What do you all think?
    Mike
    Mike
    www.alaskaatvclub.org
    There is a faster way off the mountain, might hurt a little though.

  3. #3
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    What do I think? Blah Blah Blah, they're incapable or unwilling to enfore all the laws they already have on the books. Making a bunch more laws which they also won't enforce is a meaningless gesture. Now I gotta worry about getting a ticket for slinging some mud when I sink deeper than 6 inches. Ha
    I gotta front row seat of JC from the bridge up to the dunes and I'd like to report the gunfire, bombs and burnings have been going on DAILY, ALL FRIKKEN SUMMER, nothing so far today, but it's still early

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by dws View Post
    What do I think? Blah Blah Blah, they're incapable or unwilling to enfore all the laws they already have on the books. Making a bunch more laws which they also won't enforce is a meaningless gesture. Now I gotta worry about getting a ticket for slinging some mud when I sink deeper than 6 inches. Ha
    I gotta front row seat of JC from the bridge up to the dunes and I'd like to report the gunfire, bombs and burnings have been going on DAILY, ALL FRIKKEN SUMMER, nothing so far today, but it's still early
    If their not going to enforce it then why would you worry about getting a ticket??

  5. #5
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    Originally Posted by dws
    What do I think? Blah Blah Blah, they're incapable or unwilling to enfore all the laws they already have on the books. Making a bunch more laws which they also won't enforce is a meaningless gesture. Now I gotta worry about getting a ticket for slinging some mud when I sink deeper than 6 inches. Ha
    I gotta front row seat of JC from the bridge up to the dunes and I'd like to report the gunfire, bombs and burnings have been going on DAILY, ALL FRIKKEN SUMMER, nothing so far today, but it's still early
    If their not going to enforce it then why would you worry about getting a ticket??
    He doesn't need to worry.

    I took my dogs for a walk along the river just upstream from (and well within sight of) the Old Glenn Hwy bridge just the other day. We walked right by the signs informing me and my canines that we were entering the Knik River Public Use Area. I found two freshly littered sites. One was littered with booze bottles, beer cans, and various munchie wrappers/bags, and the other site was littered with the same with the addition of hundreds of spent fireworks remains.

    So, despite literally lighting up the night's sky with evidence of their wrongdoings, all had a great time, and left the site with plenty of litter to betray their fun and games.

    (I always wondered how one burns up and shoots up a car in such a manner as to not alerting everybody within a couple of miles of what you're doing..............)

    Still no public outhouses, either........

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    If their not going to enforce it then why would you worry about getting a ticket??
    It's called bad luck, that's why.

  7. #7
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    In my first post I said it was quiet so far, a half hour later an explosion went off at bodenburg creek right near the bridge and Hwy. Lotta blacksmoke, probably a pipebomb. then for the last hour two guys have been shooting their rifles off right there by the bridge within site of the no shooting signs.
    nobody stops them 10 feet from the hwy so tell me who's going to stop them 2 miles up JC?

  8. #8

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    LOL........you are expecting way to much, do you expect them to be behind every bush or tree? Call the police if their still out there breaking the law.

  9. #9

    Default Now they will have regulations to cite them on,

    right now those no shooting signs don't have a statute behind them. And if they are written up as being citations, we don't have to worry about the prosecutors not doing their jobs. Bringing up what is happening right now has no bearing on if these new regulations will work or not because they are not in effect yet. These are out for public comment right now, look at the regs and comment on them, then tell DNR they need to insure there are enforcement people on site or readily available to enforce them.
    The important part right now is to look at and comment on the proposed regs. Ask questions about them, if you see a problem with them - Tell DNR!
    http://www.knikriver.alaska.gov/reg_...Knik_final.pdf
    We can talk about them here all we want but unless we tell DNR what our concerns are it is just internet talk.

    Personally I want to see:
    Who in DNR will have the authority to give "written approval from the Department".
    Committment by DNR to define a shooting area reachable by road vehicles before they essentially stop target shooting in the area. There is an area off Maude Road that would make a good safe shooting area, using a bluff as a backstop.
    Making sure that burn bans are included in the open fire restrictions.
    The ban on cutting dead standing wood I'm not sure about, cutting them would decrease wildfire danger. But there are people around who can't tell dead standing from almost dead standing. The same people who wonder why they can't get a fire going.
    Speaking of fires, I want to see #6 expanded to include everyone within 50 feet of the fire getting cited.
    Mike
    Mike
    www.alaskaatvclub.org
    There is a faster way off the mountain, might hurt a little though.

  10. #10
    Member alaskaal's Avatar
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    I am generally in favor of the regulations. The kind of abuse that happens in area up to Jim Creek is appalling. People who are abusers have no concept that what they are doing is bears consequences. I asked some campers at the Anderson Bluegrass Festival last summer if they could please turn off the sub-woofer of their stereo at 0300 hours. They told me that that is how people party in Alaska and for me to go back to the old folk's home in Minnesota (Actually they said to perform an impossible act on myself). There are a number of performers who won't be going back to Anderson if things don't change - that is, get rid of the wild partyers and keep the music. That sort of crass behavior cannot be sustained unless anarchy reigns. I guess that I said all that to say that the Jim Creek area has got to change or the area will fall under draconian measures. Were I a land owner around that area I wouldn't have stood for the abuse this long.

    Most of the abuse is in a realatively small area and should be easy to control with random enforcement. Once Jim Creek is crossed, the area cleans up remarkably.

    Without enforcement the area is dead. I saw the troopers out there once earlier this summer, and a DNR guy a time or two, but not lately (and I'm a Slope worker, so I spend DAYS out there).

  11. #11

    Default DNR has posted that they...

    are making a presentation on these rules Nov 8th, 6:30 to 8:30 at the Butte Elementary School.
    They aren't taking spoken comments but will answer questions on the proposed regs.
    They will accept your written comments there also.
    We'll see some of you there I think.
    Won't know who you are but I'll see you! :-)
    Mike
    Mike
    www.alaskaatvclub.org
    There is a faster way off the mountain, might hurt a little though.

  12. #12
    Member AKBighorn's Avatar
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    I don't see anything wrong with what I read however I have to side with dws a little. This summer a coworker was out by the Knick bridge with his family. In a nutshell they witnessed a vehicle being destroyed and reported it to the police. The police took there time in responding only to watch the event take place for a few minutes and then just drove away. If all these new laws go in effect are they really going to do anything different?

    Just curious how #13 will affect those that fish Jim Creek. I know it is directed at parties etc. but an event or gathering is just that right?

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBighorn View Post
    Just curious how #13 will affect those that fish Jim Creek. I know it is directed at parties etc. but an event or gathering is just that right?
    My thoughts as well. It is a gathering indeed. But alas, all for naught anyway, as many know full well, the only ones getting busted will be the poor schmuck slow enough to be caught, mostly the ones with their family slowing them down.

  14. #14
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    Question hmm.....

    All seem pretty good to me. Certainly hope to see them get out there and enfore these regulations, hopefully end some of the horror stories/sights out at JC.

    A little concerned over number 13 however. Good intentions behind it I know. Just seems a little too close to infringing upon a complete freedom of assembly...





    Jon

  15. #15

    Default Precedent here I think

    is from the Generally Allowed Uses, events or assembly of more than 50 people has required a permit for a while now.
    I know the Jim Creek Cleanup had permits last year, no big deal.
    I think the main point here we could push for is to get the permitting authority at the area manager level. Two reasons; 1-They know what is going on and are more familiar with the area, 2 - We have more bosses to go to if they get out of line.
    If I wanted to get some people together on a Saturday to clear out the deadfall on the old Knik Glacier Trail I would hate to have get the DNR Commissioner to sign a permit for it.
    But you have a good point, people do assemble (meet for a common purpose) to go fishing. They need to do some wordsmithing on that one.
    Mike
    Mike
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    There is a faster way off the mountain, might hurt a little though.

  16. #16
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    My complaint with the added enforcement that has taken place at JC is this: They are there during the DAYTIME on weekends. The MAJORITY of the illegal activities take place after 10pm on weekends and continue ALL NIGHT. duh, change the patrol times!
    I used to call the police for gunfire towards my house and for big explosions. Waste of my time. Reporting car torchings is a waste of time also for the most part. I did manage to get two kids busted a few years ago but I had to chase them in my truck while they tried to get away on 4wheelers. A state tropper happened to be riding by in Butte and I flagged him down to continue the chase. They had torched 2 stolen vehicles on the riverbank across from my house. They were minors so I don't know if any thing happened to them in court.

  17. #17

    Default I've only been out there

    during the day but I have seen patrols then. DNR and AST have said there were some night patrols done but I never heard any numbers. That does need to be addressed.
    Mike
    Mike
    www.alaskaatvclub.org
    There is a faster way off the mountain, might hurt a little though.

  18. #18

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    Once a shooting lane has been designated, how about a 40-yard dumpster that gets emptied once a month? I suspect the vast majority of shooters would happily pitch in the trash left behind by the punks.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by elgoatropo View Post
    Once a shooting lane has been designated, how about a 40-yard dumpster that gets emptied once a month? I suspect the vast majority of shooters would happily pitch in the trash left behind by the punks.
    The vast majority of the shooters are the worst litterers IMO. They never pick up there spent shells and whatever crap they drag out there to blow apart.

  20. #20

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    The last thing Knik needs is a designated shooting range. There are plenty of official ranges for people to shoot at instead of Knik. In the past I have been guilty of target shooting at Knik, but within the past few years it has seriously grown out of hand. When I want to burn some powder I go to Birchwood.

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