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Thread: BAN Commercial Bear Viewing in areas open to hunting

  1. #1

    Default BAN Commercial Bear Viewing in areas open to hunting

    There are 2,000-2,500 protected brown bear in Katmai National Park. Katmai Preserve was created by ANILCA to allowing hunting of the 6,000 plus brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula surrounding Katmai National Park.

    There was no problem hunting brown bear in the Katmai Preserve until the anti-hunting commercial bearviewing operators showed up.

    Contact the Department of Interior and tell them to not issue commercial bearviewing permits to operators in the Preserve. There are 2,000 plus bears for them to view in the "closed to hunting" hard Park.

  2. #2
    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Arno View Post
    There are 2,000-2,500 protected brown bear in Katmai National Park. Katmai Preserve was created by ANILCA to allowing hunting of the 6,000 plus brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula surrounding Katmai National Park.
    Links?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Arno
    There was no problem hunting brown bear in the Katmai Preserve until the anti-hunting commercial bearviewing operators showed up.
    Um, the Guide Operation in the KTUU video also does tours solely for Bear Viewing....He seems far from anti-"hunting"...Or at least walking up on a bear he's led camera toting tourists to before and letting a bow toting tourist place a poorly aimed arrow in said bear...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Arno
    Contact the Department of Interior and tell them to not issue commercial bearviewing permits to operators in the Preserve. There are 2,000 plus bears for them to view in the "closed to hunting" hard Park.
    Sorry, that would be opposed to the letter I sent asking if the same genius who decided to paint the bears at the russian river was the one who opened hunting there to begin with.....
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Thumbs up a better solution...

    let's have the area go to drawing.
    the AB will support it, and more important then the fact that the bears are habituated, unguided alaskan "hunters " have been taking far more bears then the population will support.
    the resource is being hammered, and if we don't take steps to reduce the harvest there won't be hunting or viewing, and everybody will lose.
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters.org/

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    Wink Bear viewing

    .Ron:

    Lets think about this for at least a minute…Alaska has a diverse economy and tourism is a huge part of that economy. To jump up and down and call for the tourist to leave (Bear Viewing) is very short sighted. We are a huge state and there needs to be room for lots of uses and lots of ideas. When we decide that our view is the only one that counts we have slapped the blinders on and now its time to start watching O’Riely and Fox Noise. Sorry about the poke at Fox.

    I know this issue has both sides of the hunting issue up in arms but some common sense will go a long way on this one.

    Walt
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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Arno
    Katmai Preserve was created by ANILCA to allowing hunting of the 6,000 plus brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula surrounding Katmai National Park.
    Just to clarify for everyone, the creation of Katmai Preserve had absolutely nothing to do with "allowing hunting of the 6,000 plus brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula." If you discount the lakes in the Preserve, it's about 1,000 square kilometers in area. The most recent estimates of brown bear densities in the the Preserve peg Unit 9C (which inludes the preserve) as having about 140-156 bears/1000km2. Another (questioned) estimate had a much higher number, somewhere around 460 bears/1000km2. In any case, the Preserve was indeed made a preserve and not a hard park so that hunting could continue, but that had nothing to do with the rest of the peninsula outside park/preserve boundaries and those "6,000" bears Rod mentioned. Harvests in the preserve have doubled in recent years and there is good cause to look into any effects this is having on localized bear populations and to look into either a draw hunt or shortening the season if indeed the higher harvests are too much.

    I'd like to ask Rod: Why do you want to ban bear viewing in the Preserve? What is the reasoning behind that?

    Also, the guide in the video (Jim Hamilton) also runs a bear viewing program in Katmai, as Hippie noted. He runs "True North Adventures" and you can find them here:
    http://www.truenorthhunting.com/index.php?id=mission
    Here's what his site says about the fall Katmai hunt:
    Katmai Brown Bear (GMU 9C)

    October 1 - October 10
    10 days 1x1$15,900
    Our 2005 Fall season brought 100% success with 12 hunters taking 12 bears in just five days. We had three 10' plus bears with 2 of them scoring 28" or better. Hunters saw anywhere from 10 to over 30 bears per day in this truly great area.

    12 hunters taking 12 bears in just five days. And it says it's a 1x1 hunt. That would mean that Mr Hamilton "guided" his clients to over two bears per day. At nearly $16 grand per hunter, that's a big chunk of change to bring "home."

    Also keep in mind that bear viewing takes place on Kodiak too; do you want to ban it there also Rod?

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by homerdave View Post
    let's have the area go to drawing.
    the AB will support it, and more important then the fact that the bears are habituated, unguided alaskan "hunters " have been taking far more bears then the population will support.
    the resource is being hammered, and if we don't take steps to reduce the harvest there won't be hunting or viewing, and everybody will lose.
    Sorry but I won't support another drawing, we have enough drawings already and every year their adding more, bad idea IMO.

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    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Default

    Dang NWAK, I already watch O'rielly and Fox News .

    There has to be middle ground on this issue. I'd love to say screw the tourists-bear viewers, but I think walt is right. I think there should be hunting in the Preserve and we'd have to see the numbers (like Hippie pointed out) to justify limiting it to a draw like hdave said.

    The "wildlife viewers" have been "howling" for years about creating a board of wildlife; I thought they were actually trying to petition for that recently. Eliminating viewing would give them, and Channel 2, more fodder. Don't get me wrong, I do believe its "their" fault for habituating bears to humans, not ours.

    Tim

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    Thumbs up

    I must say that I agree with Mr. Arno on this. I have seen the video where the hunter sticks the bear with a bad shot but I have also seen Elk, Mule deer and Whitetail deer hunters do the same thing but some how there wasn't a camera crew and animal rights lovers waiting in the eves to catch those indescretions. And I would be willing to bet that there are people on this forum who have made bad decisions with both bows and rifles.
    If you or others feel the hunt is innapropriate fine, thats personal, but if the opportunity is there people should be able to enjoy it free from individuals who only wish to use it to further their own potentially anti-hunting agendas.

    Like Mr. Arno stated, I would encourage you to send your comments to the NPS with this link.

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Rod, is this an AOC position?

    Rod, is this an Alaska Outdoor Council position to want to ban commercial bear viewing in any areas where bear hunting takes place? I've heard you argue in the past how much money hunting brings into the economy as a way of justifying hunting; don't you think the wildlife viewing industry could do the same? I was sitting here eating leftovers (moose and rice covered with my wife's fantastic cranberry sauce) and choked when I read your initial post...I'm sure the media that reads this forum is gonna love what they can do with your idea. So before things go too far, maybe you can quantify whether or not this is Rod Arno's idea, or since he speaks for AOC if it is also their idea.
    Thanks,

  10. #10

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    Last time I checked the media didn't need a permit from the NPS to do anything. And while the NPS regulates guiding in the preserve (both hunting and otherwise) private parties can do anything they wish as far as viewing goes. I'd wager that every hunting guide permitted in the preserve has some flightseeing or somesuch going on on the side. Send in your comments but you are robbing peter to pay paul by what you are asking.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Wow. I cannot imagine a worse idea. If you really support hunting bears in the Preserve, then waging a public battle to ban photography tours is the last thing you should want to do. There is no way that hunters would win this battle.

    Public perception of hunting matters. We may not like it, but that's the way it is. Public perception influences public policy. As more of the public turns against hunting the likelihood of maintaining a robust hunting future diminishes. Going so far as to suggest a complete ban on photography tours would be yet another nail ready to be driven into the coffin.

    Perhaps we should instead embrace other portions of the public and seek to educate them about hunting instead of just being combative. I would hope that the head of the state's most visible hunting org would understand that sometimes diplomacy is more effective than antagonism.

  12. #12

    Unhappy Get with the program and stop complaining

    Rod Arno-

    You do realize that Jim Hamilton of True North Adventures actually conducts bear viewing guided trips to the same areas he also conducts guided hunts? Perhaps not the exact spot but you get the idea.

    http://www.truenorthfishing.com/
    http://www.truenorthfishing.com/index.php?id=wildlife

    Its funny how this has been glossed over in previous discussions pertaining to the True North Adventure calamity, and although I'm not Mr. Hamilton, I doubt highly that he would support this endeavor as it is I'm sure a large portion of his income.

    So, instead of continually arguing with a barrel of ink i.e. TV/Print media outlets and placing blame and not taking ownership for this situation coming to head or posting half baked ideas just to vent, try corralling this energy into a productive group of ideas to present to authorities that can move your concerns forward that doesn’t make this hunting group sound like a bunch of uneducated backwoods gun toting hippies.

    For the past couple weeks I’ve been reading countless posts of comments and ideas that will do nothing to resolve this conflict. Try a positive approach like calling a press conference to announce the hunting collation (whoever this is) is currently reviewing the latest events and although no wrong doing is believed to have occurred by this hunt a full report will be made available with possible solutions suggested.

    Now, I don’t know who this hunting organization would be to voice a collective voice but if this is the first question needing an answer perhaps all those that disagree with banning Katmai hunting should be pondering this now instead of useless banter and finger pointing.

    However I doubt this will happen as its much easier for most to simply complain then to get directly involved.

    Last edited by Brian M; 10-12-2007 at 13:41. Reason: language

  13. #13

    Default Antagonism?

    Get a grip Brain, it's not me whining about killing habituated brown bear. I'm okay with hunting and viewing the same population of brown bears. It worked fine in the area for over a quarter of a century, then the anti's choose to expand the closures to hunting. By preventing the proliferation of tame bears in areas open to bear hunting everyone wins, convict over.

    You can diplomatically retreat all you want, the anti's agenda is posted on their websites-STOP Hunting

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    Member ak_powder_monkey's Avatar
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    ban bear veiwing for the bears sake, not for the hunters sake.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Member ak_powder_monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Arno View Post
    You can diplomatically retreat all you want, the anti's agenda is posted on their websites-STOP trophy Hunting
    fixed it for you...
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

  16. #16
    Member Marc Taylor's Avatar
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    Default Recreational viewing

    I like to VIEW brown bears up until the point that they are in range and offer me a great killing shot.

    I then view them on the ground at my feet and marvel at their beauty and then decide whether I'm going to invenst in another rug.

    Matter of fact, I'm VIEWING a really nice one over my right shoulder on the wall as I write this...

    Sanctioned bear viewing stops once someone gets swiped by a bear that doesn't take to being viewed.

    Bear hunting goes on and on and on and on...

    Taylor

  17. #17
    Mark
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    While I think banning wildlife viewing anywhere is a bad idea, that's exactly what people have done (and are obviously continuing to try to do) with hunting.

    And I don't think it's too unreasonable to demand more regulation/oversight involving viewing and other close contact with wildlife. Again, armed hunters are required to hire a guide to hunt brown bear, Dall sheep, and goat, yet a complete idiot like Treadwell can do as he pleases, even video his foolishness, and broadcast it to the entire world with no licensing, regulation, restriction, oversight, permitting, fees, etc, ad nauseum?

    C'mon............Let's be reasonable here..........

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    While I think banning wildlife viewing anywhere is a bad idea, that's exactly what people have done (and are obviously continuing to try to do) with hunting.

    And I don't think it's too unreasonable to demand more regulation/oversight involving viewing and other close contact with wildlife. Again, armed hunters are required to hire a guide to hunt brown bear, Dall sheep, and goat, yet a complete idiot like Treadwell can do as he pleases, even video his foolishness, and broadcast it to the entire world with no licensing, regulation, restriction, oversight, permitting, fees, etc, ad nauseum?

    C'mon............Let's be reasonable here..........
    Don't want to hijack the thread, but that isn't true. Treadwell was violating multiple laws when he met his predictable end. If the people who were benefiting from his $$ had bothered to drop a dime he would still be alive, if poorer from all the fines.

    I would point out that wildlife viewing in Katmai preserve is regulated too.

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Rod, are you okay?

    Rod, are you feeling okay? My God, look at what you are saying here. You initially post to ban all bear viewing in areas where bears are hunted, then you say to Brian that you are "okay with hunting and viewing the same population of brown bears."

    Which is it?

    For someone who represents the largest pro-hunting voice in Alaska, well I am just really sad to read what you are posting, how you are presenting the situation, and what your "solution" is going to do to the perception of us hunters among the public. I'll ask again, Is this AOC's position or is it just some rant of Rod Arno? Also I thought Brian gave a rational response to your initial post, and I don't think it's Brian who needs to "get a grip," rather you and the AOC if you really think pushing to ban any commercial bear viewing in areas where bears are hunted is a good idea.

  20. #20
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskaflyer331 View Post
    Originally Posted by Mark
    While I think banning wildlife viewing anywhere is a bad idea, that's exactly what people have done (and are obviously continuing to try to do) with hunting.

    And I don't think it's too unreasonable to demand more regulation/oversight involving viewing and other close contact with wildlife. Again, armed hunters are required to hire a guide to hunt brown bear, Dall sheep, and goat, yet a complete idiot like Treadwell can do as he pleases, even video his foolishness, and broadcast it to the entire world with no licensing, regulation, restriction, oversight, permitting, fees, etc, ad nauseum?

    C'mon............Let's be reasonable here..........
    Don't want to hijack the thread, but that isn't true. Treadwell was violating multiple laws when he met his predictable end....
    He was violating Federal regulations that applied in the National Park, and he did so for 13 years with the full knowledge of the Park staff and Superintendant.

    So I will stand partly corrected, and I'll add this to my statement:

    ...And I don't think it's too unreasonable to demand more regulation/oversight/enforcement involving viewing and other close contact with wildlife.....
    Had Mr. Treadwell been doing what he did on state lands, which regulations would he have been violating?

    ....I would point out that wildlife viewing in Katmai preserve is regulated too.
    In Brooks Camp, yeah. While visitors to Brooks were required to attend "bear etiquette" classes upon arrival, Treadwell was on the other side of the park videotaping his shenanigans for the entire world to see, and we didn't even know it was in a National Park until afterthe idiot got his fanny ate up........

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