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Thread: Speed vs. Kinetic

  1. #1
    Member Alaska Gray's Avatar
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    Default Speed vs. Kinetic

    What do you guys look for when buying your arrows? Do you look for an arrow that will produce more speed? Or do you look for a arrow that will produce more kinetic energy?

    Me, I like an arrow with some speed. Not trying to hit 300fps, but one that i can get in the 280's. But more then anything I looking for is an arrow that can get me kinetic energy.. I use to shoot GT 7595 but have switched to the FMJ 400. Lost some speed but gained allot of KE
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    Member Joel Zadvorney's Avatar
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    Default

    there is a great artical in last month's Eastmans Hunting Journal about KE vs speed. I came out that KE is better out farther. Speed is good and flat but drops off fast and has no punch behind it. It's all about weight and straight shooting. If there is a way to post the artical I will. It might be up on thier site. eastmans.com

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    Thumbs up KE for me...

    Definitely KE!!! Penetration is everything... Ask any successful traditional bow shooter about arrow speed...

  4. #4
    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Default TAP

    Interesting question. Using The Archery Program data.

    BowTech 70 pounds, 614 grain (tw) arrow tipped with 150 grain broadhead at 236 fps= 76.5 KE

    BowTech 70 pounds, 502 grain (tw) arrow tipped with a 125 grain broadhead at 262 fps = 76.49 KE

    BowTech 70 pounds, 399.4 grain (tw) arrow tipped with a 100 grain broadhead at 294 fps = 76.5 KE

    So what was the question?

    Care to play?

    http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/featu...tion/index.cfm

    Factors that may mean more: friction, diameter of the arrow, broadhead type and going straight when penetrating.

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    Member Joel Zadvorney's Avatar
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    Default

    That is great if you shoot an animal at the end of your bow. No argument there. The sticky thing is when you go out a distance. The artical I refered to used a chronograph out at 30 yards. 5 shot average speed at the 30 yard mark. The heavier arrow kept it's speed up over a longer distance. Ya know what though, it still makes sence to just make a good shot. You can kill an elephant with a .22 but I'll take a .416 any day. And here is another wrench in the question. I see where some bow manufacturs are getting closer to 400 fps. We're going to have to have an arrow spine measured in Rockwell Hardness!!

  6. #6

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    Dave,

    I bet he ment momentum.

    There are way to many factors involved to rely soley on one or the other of these two figures.

    Ke being a speed derivited figure

    and

    Mom being a weight x speed equal figure.

    If it was me I'd lean towards momentum for obvious reasons.

    That said the industry has leaned so hard to KE for one reason, SPEED, it's no wonder many use KE as the end all.

    Netiher is wrong, but both have consequences.

    A good read on speed vs mom is in an elk book I believe by bob robb by COl Bodington.

    He talks about penetration in regards to rifles, which in this case is a direct corelation to bows!

    Personally,

    I prefer to be somewhere in the middle, having enough speed with enough weight, but not to much of either. Try and find a balance in the middle.

    My longbows and recurves have done there fair share of killing, breaking bones and all. I can't complain, my wood arrows and 2 blade broadheads get the job done when called upon!

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    Default straight shooting

    First and foremost I want a shaft and tip combination that shoots consistently all the time. I have never chronographed my Hoyt, or done the math on the arrows in terms of what you are asking. I simply want my arrow to go through as far as possible.
    29" Beman ICS 400 and 125 gr thunderheads have proven themselves for me so far. If you assume I am naive and want to help, is there any advice you would offer?

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    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Default Don't AK

    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    First and foremost I want a shaft and tip combination that shoots consistently all the time. I have never chronographed my Hoyt, or done the math on the arrows in terms of what you are asking. I simply want my arrow to go through as far as possible.
    29" Beman ICS 400 and 125 gr thunderheads have proven themselves for me so far. If you assume I am naive and want to help, is there any advice you would offer?
    Don't do it. Do not chronograph your bow. Because you have the Number 1 factor already covered.

    Confidence in your equipment! (Unless you want to spend countless hours reading about archery.)

    Trad: I was not trying to be sarcastic, just making a point. Like I said: diameter of the arrow, broadhead type and going straight when penetrating are probably better factors to judge by. And, confidence! According to Easton, anything over 65 fps of KE is best for dangerous game. So I guess I am above that with 76.

    Momentum is probably a better determiniation. But with the equipment that compound shooters are using today, does it really matter?

    Right now I am using Carbon Express Terminiator's w/inserts, 125 Magnus Snuffer SS three blades, 525 grains @ 70 pounds. I have some CET Hunter Selects but fletched them with a 2 degree offset and they are not stabilizing with the Magnus heads. They weigh 600 grains.

    Why so heavy when I don't need it? It really quiets the bow down considerably than with an arrow 200 grains less. Also kinder on the BowTech in the long run.

    Kinetic Energy Hunting Usage

    < 25 ft. lbs. Small Game (rabbit, groundhog, etc.)
    25-41 ft. lbs. Medium Game (deer, antelope, etc.)
    42-65 ft. lbs. Large Game (elk, black bear, wild boar, etc.)
    > 65 ft. lbs. Toughest Game (cape buffalo, grizzly, musk ox, etc.)

    Put a razor sharp broadhead in the lungs of any animal and it goes down in less than 30 seconds, if that.

    Just watched someone shoot a caribou at 70-80 yards on TV with a bow. Spine shot and dropped........hummm.

    Sun going down, need to fling a few. , >>>--------->

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    Member JustinW's Avatar
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    Default

    I'm Kinetic energy by far. I shoot a XX78 2216 29" long with a 145 grain bear razor sharpened backwards with a rat-tail file. Complete passthrough on bears, Kudu, Blue Wildebeeste, warthogs, pigs and all smaller game.

    I don't know if they do it anymore but South Africa actually has minimum requirement for kinetic energy before you could apply to hunt Cape Buffalo with archery equipment. My dad was part of the experimental first hunts of Cape Buffalo with a bow. He actually used an aluminum shaft and slid a second shaft inside for added weight. Chuck Adams used a similar setup when he shot his Cape Buffalo. Guys have used carbon arrows for large game but in order to meet the kinetic energy requirements they packed the shaft with salt.

    More importantly with kinetic energy, a heavier arrow has more inertia and is less likely to deflect away from the vitals on impact, particularly on impact with a rib or other bone. The heavier arrow will have to power to break through, as in the example of the Cape Buffalo arrow mentioned earlier that blew through the rib of a Cape Buffalo and a Giraffe.

    For me, I'll take kinetic energy over speed anyday. I shoot the arrow described above at 275 fps out of the bow. Fast enough for me.

  10. #10

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    Dave,

    WHen I hear or read in the forums online about these modern bows not even able to break through a simple whitetail shoulder blade and yet my old school tools bust this very same bone (and yes I did this by accident, managed to pass through both sides to boot!)

    Yes it matters! This is where most new people (not saying you are), get into trouble. Fall back to whitetail shoulder blade penetration failure remark.

    On bow noise, the heavier the arrow, the less noise it makes. noise is excess energy going back into your bow, causing vibration, which equates to noise. Some bows are just noisy, even with heavier arrows, string dampeners, limb dampeners, silencers, this that and a wind sail to boot. Others just take some fine tuning, and yet others are just quiet by design, which imho leads to many to a false sense of tuning security!


    Now I see where you are going wiuth this MOM deal, but let me stop you here in your tracks. I am not a HEAVY ARROW addict. I prefer to operate in the middle, not to heavy not to light, getting enough speed yet maintaning enough weight for penetration. I have bowhuntd with trad gear for 17 years. Early on I was caught up in the heavy arrow game. I slowly changed after my own experiences and digging up info on the subject. Have since learned theree is MUCH MUCH more to the penetration factor then just KE or Mom!

    Ke is a force on impact. Ke is a speed derivited equation, speed x speed x weight divided by 450240 =KE You are getting a skewed figure right off the bat. A commercial driven figure that is doing nothing but boosting sales for one set up or another. Momentum is a figure that follows after impact (laws of physics for both). Take a soda straw, throw it fast enough, you can stick it into front door of a house (saw it last spring!). Our equipment doesnt match this kind of force. They are getting faster, oh maybe another 100fps since I started 18 years ago (my first year was with wheels), which is hardly anythign compared to what a tornado is going to generate, or even firearms.

    You NEED BOTH to get somewhere. Fast and light is just as bad as heavy and slow. Yet a heavy slow arrow on a questionable outfit is going to produce better results then fast and light, a combination of the two is what you want imho.

    Along with arrow flight, broadhead design, arrow diameter and the list goes on.

    The Natal study, which Justin must be aware of proves this theory but to an extreme most USA bowhunters have never thought of, cared to look into, or accept for the lack of opening there eyes to the real world laws of physics and bowhunting. Regarding KE and Mom.

    I have an original copy of the study, along with Most of Dr Ed Ashby's penetration studies.

    I want to forewarn you, studies can and have been skewed to make a result someone wants or believes to see. Based on what I've seen with my own equipment and others I have first handedly witness I base my decisions.

    Justin,
    I also know of archers shooting cape buffalo with footed cedars! Believe it or not.

  11. #11
    Member JustinW's Avatar
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    Agreed with TradBow!

    Don't be overly focused with either. Realize the benefits of both and find a balance that fits you. Keep in mind your weight forward and realize the downsides to having an arrow at each extreme. IMHO, light doesn't make a good hunting arrow and in some cases, light arrows are banned for reasons of ethics.

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    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Default Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by TradBow View Post
    Dave,

    When I hear or read in the forums online about these modern bows not even able to break through a simple whitetail shoulder blade and yet my old school tools bust this very same bone (and yes I did this by accident, managed to pass through both sides to boot!)
    I would like to know what they were shooting. Arrow weight, broadhead type. The only, not full, penetration I have seen on a black bear was from an expandable (about 2" when open) and about a 350 grain arrow. Hate expandables. It would be an interesting study if someone could do it, to record all the info on bad hits to start plottiing where the most problems lie. (arrow weight, expandable, bad angle...)

    Now I see where you are going with this MOM deal, but let me stop you here in your tracks. I am not a HEAVY ARROW addict. I prefer to operate in the middle, not to heavy not to light, getting enough speed yet maintaning enough weight for penetration. I have bowhunted with trad gear for 17 years. Early on I was caught up in the heavy arrow game. I slowly changed after my own experiences and digging up info on the subject. Have since learned there is MUCH MUCH more to the penetration factor then just KE or Mom!!)
    Not going anywhere with the Mom. issue. I just like a heavier arrow for peneration on moose and bears. I don't feel that 500-600 grains with a compound is too heavy. Like the reduced problems too. With the poundage I shoot, I am loosing very little in trajectory at "practical" shooting ranges.

    Along with arrow flight, broadhead design, arrow diameter and the list goes on.
    AGREED!

    The Natal study, which Justin must be aware of proves this theory but to an extreme most USA bowhunters have never thought of, cared to look into, or accept for the lack of opening there eyes to the real world laws of physics and bowhunting. Regarding KE and Mom.
    Is this available on line? Always wanting to learn more about archery.

    My first deer was with a Browning recurve bow, 53#, cedar shaft. Complete pass through with a Bear Razor. I can still see that shot, 35 years ago.

    We all have the same dream: Smooth release, perfect flight, poa hit, complete penetration, humanely harvested animal.

    Good post going so far!

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  13. #13

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    Dave,

    No!

    A summary was done in TBM, but the actual study is not up for grabs, you have to go find it. I was trying to think earlier where I found it and cannot remmeber. You can find Dr Ashby online, he can get it to you. I wanna say it was Neil Summers who I got mine from. The summary is better suited to the average person who doesnt like to dig into details, instead is just looking for answers.

    Why so heavy when I don't need it? It really quiets the bow down considerably than with an arrow 200 grains less. Also kinder on the BowTech in the long run.

    This statement is why I posted on the arrow weight issue. YOu have it backwards and it felt like a stab that I'm a heavy weight arrow guy, which I am one of the few trad guys who is not.

    Dave,
    Follow the forums, obviously not here as there is very little to any bowhunting people posting other then a few. You'll see what I mean. Anything from fixed heads and the most current bows, to mechanicals, older bows, this that and everything inbetween. Every fall it's the same thing...I wounded another, no penetration, etc etc etc... This is just what I've seen, have heard, and been told by waaaay to many.

    The attitude "Momentum is probably a better determiniation. But with the equipment that compound shooters are using today, does it really matter? ", is what usually gets these people in trouble to begin with!! I'm shooting the best there is, it should work!

    We all know that is not the truth!

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    Member SusitnaAk's Avatar
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    Default S&K

    As Dave Showed they are related, As others said have find balance of the two, Draw lenghts, poundage Men, women ,child, All would have different,Say the lady shoots 45to50lb,s not much K.E. than a two blade or cut on contact tip would be in order, Could go on for ever in the diffff. combos, Go to heaver side not to much but some,, Does, keep it,s momentum down range,,also the bow will quieter, Faster less forgiving, one last thing, You got to hit what your shooting at!!! If you get that arrow in there where it belongs, The critter is just as dead..

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    Default longwinded

    Geez Trad and I thought shooting sticks was simple. You getting complex in your old age? Never knew you had it in you. So, we have a dilemma. How we going to go shoot hares if you are working weekends? Hmmm? And just what affect does Coriolis have on arrow flight anyway?

    Dave, thanks. You are a wealth of info and I enjoy reading your offerings. At this point in my archery career the only thing I want to do is shoot enough to stay proficient and do a little hunting. And yes, pester my old GNAA buds. I do miss the old shoots up on Esro rd. Kind of miss the fun shoots at Ryan too.

  16. #16

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    Well Greg,

    It's about dam time someone else takes a day off instead of me taking it off .

  17. #17
    Member ak_powder_monkey's Avatar
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    Default

    So speed is the most important component of kinetic energy (1/2mv^2)

    the correct quetion to ask is: Is momentum more important than kinetic energy?


    Now correct me if I'm wrong but the question you should ask is what can I put downrange most accurately most of the time? And what cuts the best? The rest is just mumbo jumbo, I mean a .223 a .270 a .300 win mag and .375 will all kill a moose with almost any load (well maybe the .223 would require speciallized loads) provided the accuracy is there... So if speed gets you more accuracy than high momentums then go for speed.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Wink

    A heavy wt arrow, that flies true with feathers that collapse upon passing through the animal, partnered with a razor sharp 2 blade head can"t be beat IMHO. It"s no wonder that some of the best?? bowhunters glue shafts, inside shafts, or add weight to the inside of carbon arrows. Speed is greatly over rated in the hunting world, but has it"s place at the 3D range. Not a popular fact when the need for speed is the driving force for compound sales.It seems to be a race for the quickest! Try hunting with a heavy arrow/ broadhead from your speed compound, and watch what happens.
    ; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. 1 SAMUEL 2;30

  19. #19
    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Default Opinion

    In my opinion I see it like this. Back when 3-D first came out the "need for speed" began as the 3-D shooter demanded flater trajectories so they could increase scores. Guys were going to shorter arrows to reduce weight, overdraws, needle point arrows, anything for an advantage. If someone ran into someone else that was 30 fp faster........new bow time. The demand for speed began. The pros at the shops did what the market demanded.

    Then, 3-D shooters began using basically the same equipment for hunting.

    I have always used my hunting bow for archery leagues. My goal was to increase hunting skills. I always took at least second place. Since there were only two, hunting-rig finger shooters in the whole league. ;D

    The "need for speed" seems to have slowed a bit. People are learning that speed is only one factor. Until a technology breach is reached I do not see speeds going much higher any time soon. I also see a slight turn away from mechanicals. (Another subject)

    And just what affect does Coriolis have on arrow flight anyway?
    It all depends on if you have right or left hand fletchings, which hemisphere your in and what time it is in the bar.

    Have fun guys. Still trying to figure out the most important question: Do I call in sick this Monday or take a personal day to bow hunt. ???

    Vietnam - June 70 - Feb. 72
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  20. #20
    Member jmg's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daveinthebush View Post
    Still trying to figure out the most important question: Do I call in sick this Monday or take a personal day to bow hunt. ???
    Dave:
    Since I reckon you'll be heading up to Fairbanks to do your hunt, my vote is definitely in favor of taking the day to hunt. I was up there for a few days and did not see a single cow to take, so I am really hoping to live vicariously through you. Too busy at work to take a day or two right now, and not convinced I want to be hunting in November in Fairbanks. So please, go up there and get 'em.

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