Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: .450 Marlin/Kodiak Bullet/Proven loads

  1. #1
    Member IceKing02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    552

    Default .450 Marlin/Kodiak Bullet/Proven loads

    I am writing to see if anyone has already done the workup for this caliber and bullet. I have done up a couple of sets of loads so far, but am unimpressed with the accuracy. Contrary to my nature I am "asking for directions" to see if there have been any good success combos already.

    I am shooting these out of a Winchester 94. Yes, either the 350 Hornady loads or the 325 LeverEvolutions shoot quite well from this rifle. I'm just trying to get pointed in the right direction for powders, charge, primer and OAL since the grouping hasn't seemed to tighten up yet. I'm also a bit hesitant to go up to the more stout loads since this is only my second load to start working up. I have not acquired a chronograph and have no experience with identifying overpressured loads. Besides, I don't want to fire off a bundle of heavy loads in this rifle since I intend upon passing it down to my heirs in forty years or so.

    My interest in the Kodiak brand is to obtain a bullet that will not shed its jacket when hitting something as thin-skinned as an Afognak Black-tailed deer. If I am able to duplicate the factory Hornady ballistics of a 350gr bullet exiting at 2200fps that would be great. I'd just like to know if anyone else has found which combination gives the best place from which to start with this bullet.

    Thanks in advance one and all...

    IceKing02

  2. #2
    Member jdb3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Petersburg, Alaska
    Posts
    466

    Default

    I have been using 51 grains of IMR 4198 and get around 2100 fps in my Marlin 45/70.

  3. #3
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Yes. The 450 Marlin with the 350 grain Kodiak bonded. I've still got a couple boxes of these bullets. I've loaded them for the 450 and the 45-70 to the same velocity with slightly different powder charge. There are several good powders for this combo and probably no better bullet in this weight class for these two. The have been used to take grizzly and moose as well as bison and some large african antelope.

    For the 450 Marlin with Hornady brass and CCI-200 primers, with the Kodiak 350 grain flat nose bullet.
    48.0 grs of H4198 2015 fps.
    51.0 grs of RL-7 2030 fps.
    53.0 grs of N130 2021 fps.
    53.0 grs of 2015 2036 fps.

    This data is from the Hornady book with their 350 FP and velocity is the same. Kodiak loads like a normal bullet. These were seated to the cannellure at 2.550" OAL. These are all maximum loads and should be reduced by 3 grains to start.

    These are from an 18" barrel Marlin guide gun without ports. This velocity is also the same as chronographed factory 350 grain FP Hornady loads.

    The rifle is a little better with 20" barrel and add about 100 fps for the extra inches. In a custom MRC bolt action with the 20" I was able to get 2200 fps with a little more powder. Can't do that in the Marlin or Winchester..

    This is a do everything bullet for this caliber and works so well in the 1800 to 2200 fps range. Good luck with it, it is a fun caliber.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  4. #4
    Member IceKing02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    552

    Default Thanks guys!

    I appreciate the input and I'll try out a couple of these combinations, starting low and working up the load, of course. I'm shooting the model 94 Timber carbine so I don't have to worry about carrying any extra barrel length through the woods. I'm interested in accuracy first, then fps. I'll see if there is any group worth posting...hopefully so.

    Yours,

    IceKing02

  5. #5

    Cool I worked up a great load...

    wish I could find it... That notebook is buried under a pile of crap at the moment (just moved, haven't even set the press back up yet). Anyway, to echo Murphy, the .450 w/350 grn Kodiaks that I loaded produced good velocity and grouped (no lie) .5" ctc off the bench @ 100. I'll try to motivate myself find my notes and post the details..
    Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong...

  6. #6
    Member IceKing02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    552

    Default Thanks, Drano!

    Were you shooting these out of a Marlin or a Winchester rifle?

  7. #7

    Default Marlin..

    w/the barrel cut down to 16.5".. Shoot, lemme go see if I can find my notes...
    Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong...

  8. #8

    Default Ok, found my gouge...

    So far I've only tried out H322, and not very extensively at that (I had to pack up and move before I could really get going on the project).

    Anyway: H322, WLR, Hornady Brass, and Kodiak 350 FN & 405 FN, it was about +20F. I shot up some factory Hornady 350 FN for reference (my first time clocking rounds out of the shorter barrel - I didn't find my older notes w/velocities recorded before cutting the barrel from 22" to 16.5". I want to say I lost about 70-80 fps or so, which I can live with so long as I avoid the temptation to load to hot in an attmept to make up the velocity.) BTW, I had the barrel ported as well - I found it's muzzle jump fairly annoying before that and now it is practically gone, just a nice solid shove to the shoulder now (yes, it is LOUD however).

    Factory 350 1915 fps
    Kodiak 350 FN w/ H322 @ 56.0: 1965
    @ 57.0 1989

    405 FN w/ H322 @ 51.5 1810
    @ 52.0 1814
    @ 52.5 1837

    I was mistaken earlier, the most accurate was the last load - 405 Fn w/52.5 which printed .45" ctc. The 350 FN's ran pretty consistantly around .6 to .7"

    I hope to reattack this project soon, as I'm trying yo decide between the .450 and my newly aquired .375 Ruger for spring brown bear (I'll probably bring both along as a friend might tag along as semi-hired manual labor - meaning I pay his air fare to the island and buy the beer). When I get around to it I'll let you know how it goes..
    Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong...

  9. #9
    Member IceKing02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    552

    Default Here's the latest on the .450

    Well, I've worked from 50gr, 50.5gr, 51gr and now 51.6gr of the 2015XMR. The 51.6gr load tightened up the groups VERY well in the lateral plane. BUT, the phenomenon that I noted yesterday was that there was a consistent vertical spread of approximately 6" at 100yds. This was done with multiple 5-shot groups. The side-to-side spread was 1.5" but the vertical was 6" at 100yds. My questions are:

    1) Does this likely represent a problem with load-to-load consistency?
    2) Should I ignore this problem and keep increasing the charge (assuming that the primers are flat, there is no bulge at the base of the cartridge, and that there is no change in the force needed for cartridge extraction)?
    3) Should I quit being a cheapskate and just get a chronograph? (i.e. would that be the answer to this problem?)

    Thanks again,

    IceKing02

  10. #10
    Member AK_Stick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wasilla AK (for now)
    Posts
    165

    Default

    A big jump in vertical stringing to me, would indicate that you do not have a consistent velocity.

  11. #11
    Member MNViking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    746

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
    A big jump in vertical stringing to me, would indicate that you do not have a consistent velocity.
    Or a breathing problem. I had the same thing happen while sighting in my 7MM a few years ago. I and always produced MOA or better accuracy with this gun and all of a sudden I was cutting a line straight down the target. Finally I was showing another guy at the range and he pointed out I was shooting at a different part of my breath each time. I was a bit embarrased since I had been shooting my whole life and for some reason I brain farted the simple yet necessary step of breath control.

  12. #12
    Member IceKing02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    552

    Default Well, I'll just try again...

    Maybe I'll go up to 52grains, individually measure each charge, and try to better control the breathing. Thanks for the inputs.

    IceKing02

  13. #13
    Member IceKing02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    552

    Default Getting better!

    Thanks to all, here's the latest:

    1. I did an individual measure of all charges and used a trickler to get the measurements correct.
    2. Used the Kodiak 350gr heavy jacket bullet and 52.5grains of 2015 XMR.
    3. Shot three 5-shot groups with the same results:
    a. 3 shots into < 2" and 5 shots into 4".
    b. First 2 shots were touching each other or close to it on two of three strings.
    c. Groups were approximately 8" below the level of factory point of impact.
    4. Just bought chronograph so will find out more about the velocity data soon.
    5. Using Cast Performance 400gr bullets and 51.0gr of BenchMark:
    a. 5-shot strings looked like a shotgun pattern : (
    b. Point of impact was 2" left and 12" below factory ammo...no good reason for that one.
    6. Using Cast Perf 400gr bullets and 46.0gr of H322 (looking over some of Murphy's comments about this powder's consistency for the 45-70):
    a. 4-5" groups that were 8" low than factory and very mild recoil...

    Thanks again one and all...I'll post velocity stuff once I get the chrony up and running.

    IceKing02

  14. #14
    Member Big Al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Palmer,Alaska
    Posts
    1,737

    Default

    Then I suspect that this will not be the rifle you will want to campaign in any major bench rest matches? If this rifle only likes factory ammo, then why not just duplicate factory loads, or if all else fails, just shoot factory ammo.

    Perhaps the problem is that the rifle will not perform to the level you want?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  15. #15
    Member IceKing02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    552

    Default And I thought I was doin' better!

    Big Al,

    Most definitely this rifle is not going to punch any cloverleaves in paper. I'm just happy that I'm starting to get it closer to the factory performance with a different bullet. I am NOT a fan of the factory Hornady interlock after last year. Yes, I know that this does not make for the definitive treatise on Hornady bullets. I am just trying for something different.

    The first 350gr interlock bullet that I shot into a blacktail last year shed its jacket, bounced its way from behind the left shoulder, through the deer's chest, injured the far shoulder blade and then returned to the center, coming to rest in the sternal notch--it weighs 220grains now. That's the good news. The bad news is that it took another three shots to dispatch the deer--the second was through heavy alders on a right to left run where it took the round about an inch behind the diaphragm. The third shot was a Texas heart-shot through heavy alders and off to the right, shattering the mid-femur and traveling down the length of the leg to exit four inches above the hoof. The last shot was in the base of the skull as this deer had traveled on another 3-400 yards only to collapse on an exposed dam. That one was the keeper round. While this experience might not be typical I was sure not as pleased with the performance of this ammo in the context of my daily encounters with brownies on Afognak... This was a deer that was trying to get AWAY from me...

    To be fair about the Hornady ammunition the second deer that I took was with their LeverEvolution 325gr bullet on a clear broadside at 25yards. That little buck looked like Barry Bonds (the juiced version) had hit him. He literally jumped up into the air and onto his back, like someone poleaxed him...quite impressive.

    I'm trying to get the Kodiak heavy jackets and cast bullets to perform well as I have not heard of too many unhappy customers. As well, I can throw out another 80-95grains of lead into the path of an unhappy bruin when it is needed--never a bad thing. I still cannot get over how the ground shakes when they start running...of course, maybe that was ME shakin!

    I'll submit data for Murphy's book should he find the time to get that thing written and published. I've got dibs on one of the first copies!

    IceKing02

  16. #16
    Member Big Al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Palmer,Alaska
    Posts
    1,737

    Default

    The problem with the tube magazine rifle is always with you. Bullet selection gets vary limited because of this. If I were in your shoes, I would give Ranger Rick's bullets a try. I would stay away from jackets altogether, stay with hard cast. Now I know that's just me, that's OK, I know what has worked for me in the past.

    I don't think you need ever last fps from your rifle to make it a good killer. I would rather see big and heavy bullets driven at moderate velocity. The recipes always want to make-up for lack of energy by substituting velocity for mass, is again in my opinion a mistake in the hunting situation you present.

    I know that what I've written to you flies in the face of much which you will find. For me, give me the biggest widest meplat bullet at moderate speed for the situation you are hunting in, and I'm happy.

    Remember it much easier to drop the powder charge to loose the velocity than it is to run backwards to get the impact velocity down.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  17. #17
    Member IceKing02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    552

    Default Certainly sounds reasonable...

    I've started to try out the Cast Performance bullets for the very reasons that you describe. I'm also very much in line with your way of thinking as to velocity and recoil. The Winchester 94 is only about six pounds (until you load it...then it feels like it weighs seven pounds). Recoil can be fairly stout if one hasn't been shooting in a while...

    I'd love to see what others have found when using the Kodiak bullets--these have a heavier jacket that is supposed to help keep the bullet together. I bought a whole bunch before I'd discovered cast bullets, now I'm rethinking things...

    Thanks for the input.

    IceKing02

  18. #18

    Default

    I haven't stuck any game with the .458 Kodiak, but have done so with both .458 and .429 Hawk bullets. They're built like the original Barnes bullets, and I use the ones with the heavy .049 jackets. I can't recall how the price compares with Kodiak's, but I can say that they have given dandy performance, even at comparatively high impact velocities.

    With the conventional rifling in your 94, I'd expect it to do very well with cast bullets, accuracy-wise. Just be very sure to get every last trace of copper fouling out of it before shooting cast.

    I picked up a late model 94, probably the same generation as yours, in 25-35. Whether or not there is any comparison with yours, mine is a whale of a lot better cast bullet shooter than my late-model Marlin in 25-20. I don't think the 25-20 has microgroove rifling, but it still isn't as happy as the 94 with cast slugs. RCBS 100gn FNGC's shoot tighter than jacketed bullets in the 25-35, and that's saying something.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •