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Thread: Push feed actions will feed upside down.

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    Member Nukalpiaq's Avatar
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    Default Push feed actions will feed upside down.

    Last night I read in Craig Boddington’s book; American Hunting Rifles pg. 238 fifth paragraph where he tested whether or not push feed actions could in fact feed rifle cartridges in an upside down position.
    I have never tried this before, so I wanted to test it for myself; Each of the 4 rifles that I tested chambered and ejected rounds without any problems both in an upside down and sideways position.

    Winchester Model 70 late-model Post 64
    Remington Model 700 BDL
    Sako Model 75
    Browning A Bolt

    Good thing to know if I ever need to shoot upside or sideways. Now the real test would be doing some actual shooting in these positions. (Just for practice). Anyone try this before just out of curiousity or necessity ? Haven't tested the CRFs yet.

  2. #2

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    Yep, all three of my Weatherby Mark V's just did the same thing although don't know when I would ever shoot up side down but just in case I ended up that way it is sure good to know my 257, 300 and 416 Mark V's will feed and eject the entire magazine while up side down.
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    Member Nukalpiaq's Avatar
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    Thanks beartooth for adding the Weatherby Mark V, my 340 WM also fed cartridges perfectly too.

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    New member George's Avatar
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    Default push feeds

    This all has started up here more than once during one of the "bash the push feed" action frenzies... namely the Rem 700 and post 64.... non classic Win 70 push feeds. Usually the argument would go... "my crf such and such is THE only reliable action type when hunting T. Rex, armor plated, toothy critters etc". Someone will say that the crf is the only action that will feed upside down and crosswise when in a scrape with one of the man eaters and that the other piece of c#!* actions won't. Then the argument moves on to reliable extraction, then on to how the push feeds are susceptible to "short stroking" jams, etc. Glad to see you post that and to see there IS more to the story. By the way I've tested a lot of different actions and the notion that a crf won't "short stroke" jam is nonsense. I've found most all normal bolt actions can be "short stroke" jammed and the crf actions as a group may be a little more likely.... expecially some of the rougher-than-normal Mauser types.

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    I own a FN Mauser in .300 mag. Bought it maybe 20 years ago on the advice of a friend.He knew a few things about guns,said this was one tough action,very reliable.I didnt now much about guns ,but it sounded like a good deal,$400.00 ,equiped with a fiberglass stock. My only thought on the crf advantages might be with a stuck or expanded case.Correct me if im wrong,im no gun expert.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by danthedewman1 View Post
    I own a FN Mauser in .300 mag. Bought it maybe 20 years ago on the advice of a friend.He knew a few things about guns,said this was one tough action,very reliable.I didnt now much about guns ,but it sounded like a good deal,$400.00 ,equiped with a fiberglass stock. My only thought on the crf advantages might be with a stuck or expanded case.Correct me if im wrong,im no gun expert.
    In a Mark V Weatherby it would have to be some extreme over loaded hand load to even begin to have that problem and no factory ammo will do that. Of course I do not put extreme over loads in my rifles so I have in 30 plus years ever had the problem. But if someone shot a handload that was over loaded for the temp he was hunting in he could have this problem but this also can happen in a control feed rifle also. The case can be stuck so tight that the control feed will not pull it from the chamber either. So if the handloads are within the proper pressures or factory ammo this should not be a problem in either type of rifle.
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    Try this: Take your push-feed rifle, turn it on its side with the ejector port facing the ground, and then s- l -o -w- l -y chamber a round.

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    Member Darreld Walton's Avatar
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    Default Amazin', ain't it?!

    It's not an entirely 'bad' system! Remember that there's a lot of selective fire weapons that use the same system, as well as levers, pumps and sporting semi's. The round is held by spring pressure in the magazine until the bolt pushes it far enough forward that the lips no longer hold the round, by which time, the front receiver ring and/or chamber have already received the cartridge and the bolt is close enough behind that it's not going to escape toward the rear.
    Drawbacks? That little extractor just doesn't look like it'll hold up, though they DO until damaged or worn. Ejectors can be jammed, peened or rusted in or out, and the spring can wear or break. Some folks aren't enamored with the thought of the cartridge riding against the outboard inside wall of the receiver on extraction (dubious demerit). Some can eject cartridge cases into the next county, which can be an annoyance for reloaders wanting to recover every piece of brass.
    Still in all, I prefer the controlled Mauser style extractor, but to exclude push feeds would prohibit me from having some mighty nice rifles in the rack.
    Don't let a push feed scare you off. They'll work just fine with some care and maintenance. A worn or busted or abused claw extractor can be a pain in the butt, too!!!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfromAK View Post
    Try this: Take your push-feed rifle, turn it on its side with the ejector port facing the ground, and then s- l -o -w- l -y chamber a round.
    Ok, I did it with my Mark V Weatherby holding it at a side ways angle and made sure I barely moved the bolt pushing the round as slowly as I could, because I had not tried this and you made me curious and I wanted to see if it would feed successfully. It did feed successfully and it did it twice. The bullet made it into the chamber each time. My only question now is why would you are anyone under any hunting condition chamber a round real slow when you are hunting, especially when it is dangerous game. If it was to try and prove that a push feed rifle would not chamber the round then you would be wrong on both counts as far as my Mark V is concerned. Glad you ask me to do it because it gives me complete confidence in my Mark V without any questions concerning a round feeding into the chamber under any condition.
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    The only field use malfunction I have had with the push feed types was a severe fail to eject.

    Don't know if it was case lube left on a reloaded case (which I suspect)or just oil/lube left in chamber.

    Basically the brass flowed hard to the rear and some flowed into the ejector hole from the base of the head..

    The small half moon piece stuck in the ejector hole sticking/pinching the plunger in the down or in position.

    So each time I worked the action I had to reach in and pull the empty out or have a fail to eject and fail to feed simultaneously as the bolt was pushed forward.

    To clear it up in the field I had to take the bolt out and stick my knife tip in the hole pushing the plunger down fully and then turn the knife reaming out the brass from the ejector plunger hole.

    jedi

  11. #11

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    Jedi, what kind of rifle were you shooting, what cal. and was it hand loads?
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    I think the CRF vs push feed is often long and on going. I own both and wouldn't have it anyother way.

    The advantage of the true CRF action and I think there is an advantage is from several minor functions that gain ground on the pushers.

    First of all, the CRF has a Mauser claw extractor and a mechanical ejector. Also a mauser has more caming power during the bolt lift. Try this with both actions. Close the bolt and dry fire, then lift the bolt and note the distance the striker or cocking piece moves. This claw extractor and this extra action will pull stuck cases out when a push feed extractor may not. Then the issue of ejection, if a spring loaded plunger is used, it is possible for a empty to fly out of the action, and then IF the bolt is not pulled fully rearward, the action can be closed on an empty chamber. With the mechanical ejection, when the brass flies, at that point if we push the bolt forward the CRF will pick up another round and not close on an empty chamber. Now the push feeder Sako has a mechanical ejector and a rather substantial extractor and almost as much camming force as the M98 mauser. A weak point of the M98 and M70's is the left side locking bolt lug because it is split for the ejector, the Sako has a slot below the left lug to allow passage of the ejector to go through and the left lug is stronger. The Mauser does however have a third lug at the rear for safety and I never heard of the left lug shearing off even in severly over loaded guns.

    Just about any rifle will feed upside down but who would care. I can foresee a possibility of the need for it ot feed when lying on your side such as when nocked over by a beast and your trying to finish him from the lateral prone position.

    There are also some other advantages that are very mnor or may be a subjective point. When cycling a round into the chamber from the magazine, if our intended target runs off, it to me seems to be an easier and more controlled way of doing this with the Mauser system, and as has been mentioned just the ejection of brass can be controlled so that an empty can be caught in the hand by slowly cycling the bolt. I really like this as I am an avid handloader. Any mechanical ejection rifle can do this.

    I like a claw extractor but if I had to give up one or the other, the claw extractor or mechanical ejector, I'd give up the claw to have mechanical ejection. The Sako system is one of the very best.

    The original Winchester model 70 (and post 1994) trigger is the best in the world. The Mauser is close but needs refinement. The Dakota breeching system is the best in the world, with the C-cut collar. (and of course they have the m70 trigger) And the single sided (left side) Mauser safety that engages the striker to hold it, yet is two position, is the best. (Nothing wrong with the M70 safety just in the wrong place.) The Mauser, Winchester, Dakota, Ruger, CZ, etc, claw extractor is the best and the mechanical ejector of all those plus Sako is top notch. The older FN made Brownings were a slicked up FN Mauser with a great trigger and a very classy bolt release, out done only by Dakota's unique bolt release. And yes a positive bolt stop is an advantage when cycling quickly, I've twice seen the bolt pulled out of a M700 once resulting in a bloody nose of the shooter. (He punched himself in the nose.)

    As the little things add up, the claw extractor, mechanical ejector, Winchester trigger, improved Mauser gas handling/breeching system, positive bolt stop, positive striker blocking safety....and of course a quality built and smooth action with close fitting parts, all of this leads us to ...Dakota M76. Oh yeah, it will feed upside down and sideways.
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  13. #13

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    The only way I've been able to make my Rem 700 actions mess up is short-stroking. Push the action forward till the round pops free of the mag, then pull the bolt back immediately. The freed round will be sitting there partially in the chamber because it wasn't grabbed by the bolt (and won't be till the bolt is pushed further forward), but meanwhile the bolt is all the way back ready to grab the next round. With CRF, the round is grabbed as it pops up out of the mag and ejected as the bolt comes back, even with a short stroke.

    It's never even come close to happening to me in the field, but I have to admit that the results of that long ago experiment turned me into an enthusiastic bolt stroker when using any 700.

  14. #14

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    Well as murphy said there both good. With the care of manufacturing today we will not run into much trouble if any. I think every man ought to use what he is comfortable with and has confidence in and that he has practiced with. I am so glad I live in this great nation and have so many fine rifles to choose from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    Jedi, what kind of rifle were you shooting, what cal. and was it hand loads?
    Remington M700 left hand in .308 win.

    Shooting 165 balistic tips over 42.0 grains of 4064 and CCI standard primers if memory serves me correctly.

    I think it was quite mild too ( which is why I suspected case lube) and very accurate.

    Guessing I used the same rag too long for wiping lube off of loaded rounds and should have changed rags sooner or just missed 1 round somehow.

    jedi

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by jedi rifleman View Post
    Remington M700 left hand in .308 win.

    Shooting 165 balistic tips over 42.0 grains of 4064 and CCI standard primers if memory serves me correctly.

    I think it was quite mild too ( which is why I suspected case lube) and very accurate.

    Guessing I used the same rag too long for wiping lube off of loaded rounds and should have changed rags sooner or just missed 1 round somehow.

    jedi
    Yea, it can and does happen. I missed a round one time by not bring my bolt back all the way.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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    Member Nukalpiaq's Avatar
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    Default Shots @ charging animals

    Being out here in rural Alaska where there are human/bear/moose encounters I have never known anyone that had to shoot from an upside down or sideways position at a charging animal. But I do have a friend who shot a charging brown bear at point blank range as it was running at/or by him, he said after the bullet hit the bear's spine it fell down behind him.
    My cousin was also charged by a wounded bull moose, he only had enough time to shoot from the hip as he was raising his rifle, then lift the rifle up to his chest in a horizontal position to protect himself from the impact of the bull's antlers. The moose hit him full force which knocked him down into the riverbank, the bull then trampled over him as it jumped into the river. When the moose climbed up on the opposite bank another hunter shot him dead.
    Another time a group of three hunters were walking through the trees on a trail, a bear was laying on the side up ahead out of sight and just when the hunters rounded the corner to where the bear was laying, it jumped up and charged them. They told me it was less than 10 feet away. The front man froze in his tracks, the third man moved to the side off the trail. The middle man side-stepped the front man raised his loaded rifle and fired hitting the bear in the middle of the forehead, the bear fell down at their feet.
    There may be others instances out here where animals have charged hunters who were on foot, but I haven't heard of any more besides these three.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    Ok, I did it with my Mark V Weatherby holding it at a side ways angle and made sure I barely moved the bolt pushing the round as slowly as I could, because I had not tried this and you made me curious and I wanted to see if it would feed successfully. It did feed successfully and it did it twice. The bullet made it into the chamber each time. My only question now is why would you are anyone under any hunting condition chamber a round real slow when you are hunting, especially when it is dangerous game. If it was to try and prove that a push feed rifle would not chamber the round then you would be wrong on both counts as far as my Mark V is concerned. Glad you ask me to do it because it gives me complete confidence in my Mark V without any questions concerning a round feeding into the chamber under any condition.
    Under stress we do all sort of things, including tripping and falling. I know of a fellow who saw a bear walk across the trail about 30 yards from him. He fired at the bear three times (or so he thought), but the bear ran into the brush. He went back the get his hunting partner to track the wounded bear, so both came-up to the spot he shot his rifle at, and there on the ground were three unfired rounds. He was a GI I knew at Eielson AFB.

    Why would anybody load a chamber slowly, or with the rifle on its side? Who knows! But I would imagine that a person under stress, after being toppled by an animal, etc., may not be in his right mind, or perhaps not able to straighten the rifle before firing it.

    In which position was the push-feed rifle that jammed when a guide was being mauled by a bear a year or two ago? Who knows?

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfromAK View Post
    Under stress we do all sort of things, including tripping and falling. I know of a fellow who saw a bear walk across the trail about 30 yards from him. He fired at the bear three times (or so he thought), but the bear ran into the brush. He went back the get his hunting partner to track the wounded bear, so both came-up to the spot he shot his rifle at, and there on the ground were three unfired rounds. He was a GI I knew at Eielson AFB.

    Why would anybody load a chamber slowly, or with the rifle on its side? Who knows! But I would imagine that a person under stress, after being toppled by an animal, etc., may not be in his right mind, or perhaps not able to straighten the rifle before firing it.

    In which position was the push-feed rifle that jammed when a guide was being mauled by a bear a year or two ago? Who knows?
    Really don't know where you are going with your post. First, I have been charged and under a stressed situation three times in my life and I killed all three animals. Second, I have had no jams. Third, I have a 44mag 4" barrel that rides in a custom made cross draw with a 320gr heat treated cast bullet for when things are up close because the circumstances can go bad. Now I own both push feed and control feed rifles and so far none have given me trouble. I think any machanical tool can break and that includes a rifle whether control feed or push feed. Sure hope my rifles never fail but that is why I carry my Ruger Redhawk, just in case.
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    Human error is being added into the equation. Short stroking the bolt, too much lube on a cartridge, stuck cartridges, etc, etc.
    So when it comes down to it, what is most likely to fail in a close encounter with a dangerous animal, the rifle or the hunter ?
    I think if a hunter did all he/she could to make sure they were familiar with their rifle (Pushfeed or CRF), and it was maintained and functioning properly before each hunt, the chances of mechanical failure and human error would be reduced considerably.

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