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Thread: Remington Mountain Rifle???

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    Member Ripper's Avatar
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    Question Remington Mountain Rifle???

    Hey guys-

    I am looking at getting the Remington 700 LSS mountain rifle, but I was wondering if anyone that has one could vouch for the rifle's accuracy. I know they have a short (22"?) and a light contour barrel, and I was thinking that might not offer very good accuracy. I have heard that the short and light barrels can get "whippy". For you folks that own one, how well does it shoot?

    -JR

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    Arrow Remingtons

    Ripper:

    I advised a friend awhile back to buy either the mtn. rifle or the titanium from rem'.

    The titanium was a lot cheaper and he went with that. m.h.o. is that remington's right now are the most accurate factory guns out there.

    the titanium is a lot of gun for the money. my friend could not hit squat with it out of the box. I could and had no problems with it, so i knew it was not the gun. of course, it did need an immediate trigger job, as almost all factory guns do. his problem was with the recoil on this light gun, .30-06.

    he put the scope i told him and sent it where i told him for the brake and recoil pad. when he got it back, presto, he could now hit with it.

    i took him for his first guided hunting trip to kodiak and he killed a nice buck with it, one shot. i told the guide to keep him inside 150 yds.

    one of the ways they keep the gun light is to short you 2" on the barrel. of course, a 24" barrel would be the better way to go. one of the sacrafices to keep the cost of a factory produced gun down.

    yes, light weight barrels are whippy and they will heat up rapidly. the barrel will be warm after the first shot, hot after the second shot and the third shot can not be counted on. hence, make the first shot count. light weight guns are difficult to shoot and are not as forgiving.

    heavy guns, settle much better and will be more accurate all else being equal. they are not a pleasure to carry. again , a trade off.

    i carry a light weight gun, i would rather shoot a heavy gun.

    the mtn. gun is a fine gun, i beleive from the custom shop and they can set the trigger for 3.5#'s. the titanium is another great choice.

    hope that helps.

  3. #3
    Member Mort's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Go-To Gun

    My 30-06 LSS Mt Gun is my go-to gun. It's light, plenty accurate, and I find it quite handsome. The only times I don't take it are: 1) I intend to hunt or really expect to encounter brown/griz (I know, there's always a CHANCE), 2) I really want to take game with another arm (as in "sentimental" reason or different challenge).

    The light weight does increase felt recoil on the range, but that's a good trade for the ease of carry in the field. Buy whichever one you want, for whichever reason, and don't look back - I don't think you can go wrong. I love my Mt Rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cold zero View Post
    Ripper:


    ..... m.h.o. is that remington's right now are the most accurate factory guns out there...... my friend could not hit squat with it out of the box..... of course, it did need an immediate trigger job, as almost all factory guns do......... i told the guide to keep him inside 150 yds.


    yes, light weight barrels are whippy and they will heat up rapidly. the barrel will be warm after the first shot, hot after the second shot and the third shot can not be counted on. hence, make the first shot count. light weight guns are difficult to shoot and are not as forgiving.

    heavy guns, settle much better and will be more accurate all else being equal. they are not a pleasure to carry. again , a trade off.

    i carry a light weight gun, i would rather shoot a heavy gun.
    I tend to agree with all you're saying here except for that first statement.

    There is absolutely no living evidence that the Remington M700 rifle is the most accurate rifle, out of the box. Now that's my opinion, having handled and fired well into the hundreds of them. Having said that I will say I've seen some very accurate M700's, all but maybe two were not "right out of the box". A good friend of mine is a dyed in the wool, forever faithful Remington fan and he has said the same thing to me many times. When I pressed him about his favorite shooting M700 he said all he did was; bed the action, adjust the trigger and recrown the barrel. So much for out of the box. I heard another old high school buddy say that he thinks the M700 is the best rifle ever made. I asked him how many different rifles he had owned and he said just the one M700 '06 he bought when in high school. So much for his depth of experience. I've also heard "...it must be the best or the military wouldn't have bought them for sniper rifles (referencing the M40/M40A1). There is only one reason why we had the M40, Remington got the contract.

    Keep in mind these rifles were rebarreled and restocked shortly after they were transfered to the military, along with many other improvements. Some of them were very accurate and in the 308 caliber they were a pretty good duty rifle, many were not and had other problems associated with the Remington design.

    Now on to light barrels and accurate shooting. A think there is ample evidence that a light barrel can be as accurate as any heavier barrel. The problem with this is the big IF of the right load, etc. A heavy barrel can shoot well with a wide variation of loads and bullets, a light barrel may shoot very well but very likely with only one load/bullet/ exit velocity. It is the exit velocity that sets up the hummer barrel vibrations that send the bullet on its way with the utmost in stability. Many factors come into this equation.

    The biggest factor here is as you point out the weight of the barrel helps to steady the hold, lighten the recoil, and dampen shooter boggles as well as barrel vibrations. And as you said light barrels heat up quicker, and they also have a more pronounced change in impact from cold to cool to warm to hot. Four different POI, where as the heavier barrel can shoot a full magazine into the same hole. It is certainly true that we carry it more than we shoot it, in the case with a hunting rifle, so the first shot is all that matters, the warm second will be close enough to finish a wounded animal.

    With the training ritual of the long shooter comes the discipline to record and maintain the POI of the first cold barrel shot. And this must be done every day, at different times of day with accurate records kept. The first shot is of the greatest importance here, groups matter very little. To hit a quarter three times from field prone at 300 meters is far more a function of the shooter than the barrel of the rifle, yet the barrel must deliver as well. This the weekly test of any good long shooter, with only three tries. It takes the best of equipment but I would certainly prefer the best shooter with mediocre equipment over the best equipment in the hands of a mediocre shot.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  5. #5

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    On the general principle of light barrel, light rifle and recoil, I can offer this:

    I've had a number friends over the years buy rifles in this class and 06, either 700 MR's or Ruger UL M77 as their first or primary rifles. Most had complaints about accuracy, but when I bench rested each gun, they all shot credibly. Recoil, noise, lack of experience and unfamiliarity were the problem in each case.

    The same solution worked for each of these hunters. I loaded 200 rounds with enough 4895 or 4064 to push 125 grain bullets at around 2500 fps, meanwhile testing loads to find a high vel 180 grain load that also worked in the particular rifle. The 125-grain loads produce less recoil and noise than most 30-30's, but are fine for deer out to a couple of hundred yards, and very easy to shoot well. I also hosted them on trips into the field for lots of offhand plinking. Suddenly the guns were "accurate" and the owners developed lots of confidence.

    When they came back to get their cases refilled, usually within a few weeks, I loaded the cases with the hotter 180 grain load without telling them. Also offered to resight the guns with the new loads, but saying only that it should be done every time you reload. Suberfuge for sure, but they honestly never noticed the difference. Their rifles were "accurate" and fun to shoot with the newer loads, so they shot them accordingly.

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    Lightbulb

    Murphy:

    I qualified my Rem' statement with m.h.o., i did not say there was solid evidence.

    That being said, the last s.c.i. convention i attended a long and interesting lecture by a guy who sells custom handloads for rifles that you send him and he went into great detail brand by brand the problems each brand has and why he agreed with that statement as well.

    i know of another high end gunsmith, who builds some of the best $7k sniper rifles and he too agrees with the Remington being the most accurate out of the box.

    most of them need work out of the box, trigger job for sure, some need bedding and fewer need re-crown. You get what you pay for. Other brands will need even more work to be made to shoot.

    i do not beleive that a lt. weight barrel can be as accurate as a heavy contour barrel, shot to shot. Maybe for the first 1-2 shots, or like you say cold bore shot. But, not after that.

    a heavy barrel takes longer to heat up and cools down faster. That is why benchrest and sniper rifles use heavy contour.

    my hunting rifle has a blind magazine that only holds 2 rounds for this reason. The thought being after that you are a lot less likely to hit anything with the hot barrel. Different barrel harmonics and p.o.i..

    i agree with the cold bore shot being the one that counts, hence my username. it is all about the first shot.

    we agree, that it is the nut behind the butt that makes the shooter/rifle combo work, not the rifle/shooter combo. equipment, is not a substitute for proper training and practice.

    The "log book" is an important tool, as is the "maintenance/round count" book that should be kept with each gun. the log book records many factors that effect the shot; light, wind, humidity, temperature, dew point, altitude, shot call, cold bore shot, elevation in m.o.a., etc. The log book , can then be referred back to at a later date, in similar weather and light conditions to provide the dope to adjust your scope.

    I keep a mt./round count book for every gun i own, including pistols. this ensures proper mt. of the gun to ensure reliability and accuracy. I also keep a Kestrel 4500 to provide important info' in my pack in case of long shots.

    Then again, most guys while out hunting do not adjust their scopes for windage or elevation and just holdover or use kentucky windage. This is far less accurate than adjusting your scope for a deadon hold at distance.

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    Member Darreld Walton's Avatar
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    Default Mine were .308 and .280...

    Both gave me good, repeatable, first shot hits. Follow-up shots could get dicey.

    The .308 lost less velocity than the .280, when compared to longer barrels.

    I don't own either of them now.

    All of my Remington bolt action centerfires now also say "U.S. Model of 1903" and "US Model 03A3". Those DO shoot well......

    I'll probably be tempted by another one someday. I don't go out of my way to find them, though. If it was a toss up between a 700 Mtn Rifle and a Featherweight M70, the Winchester would go home with me. Even a push feed.

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    Well all of you are wrong about the Remmy, I hate and think the Savage is the most accurate out of the box I've ever seen. I don't think that's fair cause I don't like them, but the 110, 112 series does not lack in the accuracy department out of the box. A lot of Remington 700 can not make that claim.

    That does not mean that I would buy or own for myself either rifle or use either for an action to build on.

    The kind of money it takes to go through a Remmy, I would rather spend on a good custom action and be done with it.

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    Cold Zero,

    You obviously are well versed in the shooting tasks and capabilities and I understand where you're coming from. I also know my opinion is not the most popular with regard to the Remington, most think they are generally very accurate, that is a popular opinion. One of the things Remington has going for them is they are the best designed gun for mass production. This gives the most stream lined manufacturing practices and one of those side affects is everything fits very well even when snapped together. For instance the cheesy little extractor, that is an inexpensive part to make, but it works, they almost never break. The sandwich together recoil lug, another example.

    You bring out some good points about custom smiths making expensive rifles on M700 actions. One reason for that is ease of maintenance and assembly, everything is modular. The action is simple and light weight. The rifle is athsetically pleasing and durable. It is the most popular bolt action rifle for good reason. It is still a good buy.

    Back to the original thread about light weights, the truth is they are more difficult to shoot well, but more fun to carry. A point I tried to make earlier was that they do not need to be tack drivers if we aren't tack shooter in the field. Sort of a minute of moose concept. It instills confidence in us as shooters when we shoot that 1/2" group but we know we can't do that from the field. And a bad shot with a super shooting gun is still a bad shot, the reverse will put meat on the table. Also there is more to a rifle than accuracy. Many other factors are more important to me when I'm afield with a rifle. I think the Remington and the Savage fail on those points.

    I don't know how the price stacks up with the Kimber Montana, but I would prefer that gun to the LSS or Titanium Remington. I believe they are about $1200 each aren't they? Yes the Titanium is lighter but I can still carry the LSS or the Montana, also as you and others pointed out, a healthy dose of recoil comes with the ultra lights. Life is a compromise. I think it an error in judgment to buy a gun because it is the lightest thing going then harp about the recoil and have to install mercury in the stock and add a muzzle brake so you can shoot it. There is the added expense, weight and length of the rifle which is where a "heavier" rifle was to begin with. We could save our money for ammo.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  10. #10

    Default Remington Fan

    I have been a long time Remington Fan. I have some of the other brands as well. If I remember correctly several years ago the national silhouette championship light rifle match was won with an "out of the box" Remington . No tuning right out of the box. Could have been all hype I don't know. But if you look on the firing line there are mainly Remingtons. These matches are a lot of fun and will really increase your skills at off hand shooting. I have a friend that loves his savage as well, as someone else has mentioned. Don't know if I could get myself to buy a Savage bolt action, but some swear by them. Just my 2pennies. Flathorn

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    A couple years back I wanted a light weight rifle...So I was torn between and M-700 Titanium and a Kimber Montana.

    Anyway after a bunch of comparisons I ended up with a 30-06 Remington titanium. I thought it would be a tack driver due to my experience with the M-40s and M-24 sniper rifles...

    Wrong.. Out of the box it was not worth a darn for an $1100 rifle.

    I needed to do all sorts of things to get the darn thing to be an accurate rifle.
    As it is now, it will shoot two shots touching at 100 meters and then throw the third one inch away as the fishing-pole weight barrel heats up...Then they head off about an inch each shot until you let the barrel cool for 45 minutes..

    I already have several other rifles that will shoot 10 shots into a ragged hole, so the Rem 700 titanium is not anything to get all excited about..

    I would sell mine if I could recover the loss...
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
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  12. #12

    Default Remington 788

    What do you guys think of the old 788.
    They kind of have the savage 110 or Stevens 200 complex of being as ugly as hell.
    I used to have a 22/250 that was really accurate and killed the heck out of caribou on the Kobuk.
    They weight about 7 lbs and are ugly as sin. However, they are extremely accurate.

    They were different from 700s but imho were leagues better than 770's and 710s in production now. I read somewhere that they had better lock time and were all pretty accurate.

    Any thoughts.

    Sincerely,

    Thomas

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    Man what a lot of trouble you can get into with the 788. Let it die on the vine, put your time and money some where else.

    I live in Alaska, I will not go with out controlled feed rifles. Positive feed is where it's at for the hunter far from his tools and his gunsmith, and where the game can bite back!

    Accuracy does not mean squat when you can't extract a fired shell, or the push feed action fails to chamber a round when you really needed that second shot, you know as in a life or death situation.

    Yeah I know, none of this could ever happen to you, it's all just stories from the outdoor magazines, right?

    As to the Remingtons, I've seen them right out of the custom shop shot more what you would call patterns than what you would call groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post

    Wrong.. Out of the box it was not worth a darn for an $1100 rifle.

    I needed to do all sorts of things to get the darn thing to be an accurate rifle.
    As it is now, it will shoot two shots touching at 100 meters and then throw the third one inch away as the fishing-pole weight barrel heats up...Then they head off about an inch each shot until you let the barrel cool for 45 minutes..

    I already have several other rifles that will shoot 10 shots into a ragged hole, so the Rem 700 titanium is not anything to get all excited about..

    You just summed up what the light weight mtn. rifles shoot like. I have a custom gun that i hunt with that shoots the same way and costs 3 times as much.

    do the other rifles that shoot 10 shots into one ragged hole, weigh the same as the remington titanium?

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    Quote Originally Posted by flathorn View Post
    I have been a long time Remington Fan. I have some of the other brands as well. If I remember correctly several years ago the national silhouette championship light rifle match was won with an "out of the box" Remington . No tuning right out of the box. Could have been all hype I don't know. But if you look on the firing line there are mainly Remingtons. These matches are a lot of fun and will really increase your skills at off hand shooting. I have a friend that loves his savage as well, as someone else has mentioned. Don't know if I could get myself to buy a Savage bolt action, but some swear by them. Just my 2pennies. Flathorn
    What are the group's opinions on a Ruger M77? My .30-06 is 15+ years old and has always produced 1-1/4" groups at 100 yards, and I have always wondered if it'd do better with someone else shooting it. Probably. The point is, that it's been pretty good right out of the box ...no work done on it other than feeding ammo through it and keeping it cleaned and lubed. Has a few dents in the wood now, but that's OK ...it's not a glitzy shiny gun (which I don't prefer anyway ...hunting guns should be non-gloss.)

    Brian

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    You just summed up what the light weight mtn. rifles shoot like. I have a custom gun that i hunt with that shoots the same way and costs 3 times as much.

    do the other rifles that shoot 10 shots into one ragged hole, weigh the same as the remington titanium?
    Nope, the mountain rifle is a about 1.0 to 1.5 pounds lighter than my very accurate rifles and 2 to 3 pounds lighter than my super-accurate rifles.

    BUT,,, since I recently turned my standard ugly duck M-77MKII 350 Rem Mag. into a good knock around rifle that weighs exactly 8 pounds with sling, 2x7 Leupold, Warne quick detach mounts, and back-up iron sights,,,,
    I take the controlled feed 350 Mag which now shoots one hole at 100 meters and is sighted for 250M using Kodiak 225 grain slugs. I can put up with the extra pound.
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  17. #17

    Default have the trigger adjusted on a remington rifle.

    I got a Remington Mtn. rifle in 30-06 earlier this year. When I first tried to sight it in most of the shots were 2 - 3 inches apart at 100 yeards (and that was with letting the thin barrel cool after each shot). But I did notice that the trigger was hard to pull and was not very crisp. I had a gunsmith adjust the trigger. Its shoots really accurate now. Klaus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
    Hey guys-

    I am looking at getting the Remington 700 LSS mountain rifle, but I was wondering if anyone that has one could vouch for the rifle's accuracy. I know they have a short (22"?) and a light contour barrel, and I was thinking that might not offer very good accuracy. I have heard that the short and light barrels can get "whippy". For you folks that own one, how well does it shoot?

    -JR
    As the owner of a model 700 LSS mountain rifle i"m pretty happy. Not the type of rifle that you would choose for rapid shooting sessions, and the triggers can be adjusted by you if your so inclined. The felt recoil is a little stiff,( mine is a 30-06). I would buy it again if that tells you anything. I also have the dies to reload for it but the remington 180"s do so well that for the time being i"m using those. Not only is the rifle lite, but the profile is slim pick one up, and sight down the barrel you will know what I mean. I think that the point of impact, with diffrent brands of factory ammo, Federal 180 Noslers, in my case was very diverse at least I got that impression. Seems to me that the lite wt. barrel is very pickey, and not the type of barrel that lends itself to shooting diffrent brands, and bullets to the same point of impact even if they are the same weight. Hope this helps Bill.
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    Default RE: Mountain Rifle

    I too decided between the Titainium and the 700 LSS. I chose the LSS Mountain Rifle. Before I took it to the range I new it needed a triger job, which I do on most of my guns, all at 3 lbs. At the first trip to the range I shot 4 different types of 130 gr ammo, with the best grouping 1.75". I was not a happy camper. I decided to keep it & spend more money. I sent it to Hill Country Rifles for accurizing and a Macmillan stock. It came back at 5 lbs 15 oz. Before the accurizing, the best ammo was the Remington Scirocco. Groups with that ammo went from 1.75" to about 1.1" after the accurizing. THat's ok with factory ammo, so I haven't done anymore. With reloading I'm pretty sure I could get it under 1". In my opinion, it's rare to get a light weight rifle to shoot under 1". Realy tight accuracy wasn't my original objective. I wanted a light weight .270 with decent accuracy.

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    Default question to float pilot

    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    Nope, the mountain rifle is a about 1.0 to 1.5 pounds lighter than my very accurate rifles and 2 to 3 pounds lighter than my super-accurate rifles.

    BUT,,, since I recently turned my standard ugly duck M-77MKII 350 Rem Mag. into a good knock around rifle that weighs exactly 8 pounds with sling, 2x7 Leupold, Warne quick detach mounts, and back-up iron sights,,,,
    I take the controlled feed 350 Mag which now shoots one hole at 100 meters and is sighted for 250M using Kodiak 225 grain slugs. I can put up with the extra pound.
    Not to highjack this post, but how do you like the Warne quick release mounts on your Ruger? Do they engage the receiver as well as the factory rings?

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