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Thread: Crossing stream got a ticket !!!

  1. #1
    Member Roger's Avatar
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    Default Crossing stream got a ticket !!!

    Ok My wife got a ticket from the fish cops for crossing a stream that DNR gave us a permit to cross for the last 5 years to get to our cabin. He said that she did not cross perpendicular !!!!!,So he wrote her a mandatory court appearance. But did not put how much the fine was. I went round and round with him but then he threatened to take the wheeler. My wife is very upset . I have met every warden every year and they said they did not care as long as I had a permit but this guy is an *****. I called DNR and they said that F&G could do what they felt was right even if I have a permit.

    My wife has been worried sick because he wrote it as a criminal offense and she is worried about the fine and has not been able to sleep well since it happened. And the court date is in OCT. And when I called the trooper he said he thought that the fine would be $500 but he did not know for sure.

    Has anybody delt with this situation before. Any suggestions ? I would hate to have her plead guilty ,Because we have the permit ,But I would hate to take it to court because I do not know what that cost.
    PEOPLE SAY I HAVE A.D.D I DON'T UNDERSTA.....OH LOOK A MOOSE !!!

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    Roger, that sucks and tell your wife to hang in there.

    I would fight it. If you have a permit to cross the stream, than you should be legal. The fishcop has to prove that you folks were crossing in a way to damage the ecosystem. Some fishcops have a holier than thou attitude, most are decent though.

    You guys just have to figure out if its worth it monatary wise. If it was me I would fight regarding the cost, its all principle, especially if I am in the right.

  3. #3

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    Roger I am sorry to hear about your wife's encounter, I truly am. As an avid atv'er I know how unpractical it is to cross a moving body of water in a perpendicular manner. It risks the loss of the atv and the safety of the rider. Some may say, "just don't cross water," well, if you don't cross water you might as well circle the parking lot instead. There isn't a trail I have been on that doesn't cross water that holds some kind of fish. For those who have spent any time on an atv you will know what I am talking about, I don't expect anyone to pretend. I've even seen troopers cross Jim Creek zigging and zagging to the shallows. It's weird how they can sit on one end of Jim Creek and issue citations but when it comes to checking bear bait stations towards Friday Creek they can cross Jim Creek however they please. Fact of the matter is tackling the current at angle while going downstream is the safest way to cross these waters. I know the law is somewhat geared to protect rearing fish and so on, but how often do you see an atv trail passing through spawning grounds? I haven't seen any. I find it funny a citation can be handed out for crossing water when I can run that same stretch of water in my jet boat as often as I please. Best of luck to you and your wife Roger.

  4. #4
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    Ok My wife got a ticket from the fish cops for crossing a stream that DNR gave us a permit to cross for the last 5 years to get to our cabin. He said that she did not cross perpendicular !!!!!,So he wrote her a mandatory court appearance....
    Glennallen court, right?

    ....But did not put how much the fine was. [b]I went round and round with him but then he threatened to take the wheeler.......I called DNR and they said that F&G could do what they felt was right even if I have a permit......
    Go to court, kick his ass, and piss him off.

    .....My wife has been worried sick because he wrote it as a criminal offense and she is worried about the fine and has not been able to sleep well since it happened. And the court date is in OCT. And when I called the trooper he said he thought that the fine would be $500 but he did not know for sure......
    He's sure. It will be $500, unless you kick ass with your permit in hand.

    ....Has anybody delt with this situation before...
    Kinda', sorta'.

    .....Any suggestions ?..
    Go to court, present your permit, and be prepared for an education.

    .......I would hate to have her plead guilty ,Because we have the permit ,But I would hate to take it to court because I do not know what that cost.
    It will cost you the day in lost endeavors.

    Go. It's a mandatory appearance, anyways, right?

    Show your permit. Explain that you worked hard to do it right. Let them work for it.

    They may get you, anyway, but make them work for it.

  5. #5
    Member broncoformudv's Avatar
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    The way I understand the law is you have to cross at authorized crossing areas. I have never seen anything written that you have to cross perpendicular to the water.

  6. #6

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    Definitely show up for that court date. Since it was a summons, they WILL post an arrest warrant for her if she doesn't go.
    In court, present your case, as it sounds like you have an excellent one to present.
    The key here is to go in there and be as "professional" as you can in the courtroom. Have your case written so your wife and you can look to your notes so you don't forget anything, as so often happens under stress. Don't yell, call names or (the wife) cry, as all that will do is piss the judge off and make him/her become very inflexable.
    They may still impose the fine, but many, many times they will either dismiss it altogether if you have a decent case, or will set aside the fine (except court cost, of course).
    Good luck, and let us know what happens.
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

  7. #7

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    Which creek? How many others routinely use the crossing? Is it a designated trail? Seems as though this reg is usually selectively enforced. Many, many streams are routinely crossed by thousands of atv's and never a raised eye brow. Others are closely guarded by individual troopers and that is how they get there quotas.

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    Several years ago, I got a ticket. I was not guilty and I could have easily proved it. All I needed to do was to say what happened. Because I had never been in court and did not know how the court system works, the Trooper gave his testimony. When it came my turn, the judge would not let me say anything in my defense.
    I am not lying.

    If the judge let me say what happened and found me guilty. I would have accepted his finding, with no ill will toward the court system. To not let me say anything in my defense, in not
    acceptable.

    I have four suggestions: #1. pay the fine, #2. hire a Lawyer, #3. go to several court cases on F&G ticketing and learn how the system works.

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    Hmm, I'm wondering what that forth suggestion was going to be...

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    Years ago a friend of mine bought a piece of equipment (drag line) out in the bush at a state auction. It had been drug in by a Cat years before. So in late winter, after the ice was as thick as it was going to get, he drove his Cat out there from the Trapper Creek area, hooked up to it and started pulling it home. In several places he broke through the ice on smaller streams that had overflowed. He was about half way back when the AKF&G dropped out of the sky, arrested him, hauled him off to the pokey, and made him post bail to get out. He lost his day in court. They didn't care. He forgot to get a permit that he didn't know was required. (new law back in those days)

    Now, there was no other way to retrieve the drag line, and it was sold by the state, so they knew any buyer had to cross several rivers & streams to get it home. But it didn't matter. Logic was not in play then, and logic has never been an issue of discussion when multiple state agencies are at war with each other.

    I hope you win your case. The absurdity is amazing. At least the oil companies are paying for our government at work. I would hate to think our own taxes are paying the wages of the people who are messing us over.

  11. #11
    Member Roger's Avatar
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    Thanks all !!

    I do not know how the court system works ? Does she plead guilty or not guilty before the judge sees the evidence ? Or does she make her plea and then another court date is set up ?

    The creek is on the DNR list of creeks allowed to cross IF YOU HAVE A PERMIT and I do have the permit had it for the last 5 years.And to think I go down to F&G every year and Tell them my airboat is full of gas and ready to go if there is ever an emergency on the Big Su ,Because I know the do not have a boat ready to go here in Talkeenta.
    PEOPLE SAY I HAVE A.D.D I DON'T UNDERSTA.....OH LOOK A MOOSE !!!

  12. #12

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    No, do NOT plead guilty. That will end all your chances for redemption in that court. She will face the judge on her court date. Her "fate" will be decided then. No other court date will be set up unless there is a continuance for something, which is highly unlikely. That summons date is the real deal, so be ready when you get to the court that day.
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

  13. #13
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    Talking In my defence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Strutz View Post
    Hmm, I'm wondering what that forth suggestion was going to be...
    Do not listen to a person who can not count past 3.

  14. #14
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    .....The creek is on the DNR list of creeks allowed to cross IF YOU HAVE A PERMIT and I do have the permit had it for the last 5 years.......
    This list?

    I thought the creeks on this list were "Authorized Vehicle Stream Crossings", were "generally permitted", and a permit document wasn't needed.

    If not, the cops could issue tickets all day long at Jim Creek........

  15. #15
    Member Roger's Avatar
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    Yep that is the list !!! And you are suppose to register with DNR.
    PEOPLE SAY I HAVE A.D.D I DON'T UNDERSTA.....OH LOOK A MOOSE !!!

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    Yep that is the list !!! And you are suppose to register with DNR.
    This is exactly what I alluded to in my earlier post. Someone has it in for you. Do you not think that the troopers could write thousands of these tickets every day? To selectively single you out, there has to be other issues not related to this incident. But the incident was merely a vehicle to address their needs.

  17. #17
    Member Roger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    there has to be other issues not related to this incident. But the incident was merely a vehicle to address their needs.
    Yes there are! Some of the "LOCALS" called and said I was crossing.
    PEOPLE SAY I HAVE A.D.D I DON'T UNDERSTA.....OH LOOK A MOOSE !!!

  18. #18
    Member Kurt S's Avatar
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    Roger,

    I believe your court date is for pleading. If you plead NOT guilty, then you will be given a trial date. If you plead guilty, you will be fined.

    If you go the first route, you will be given a date of trial and you will pick your jury the day of the trial, usually a jury of 6. There is no cost in this to you, only the fine if you are found guilty. You don't need a lawyer, but here's the tough part...your wife has to represent herself, you can't do it. If she can't do that, then you best hire an attorney and have him do it.

    Kurt

    Ps, been there, done that, attempting to snag or not, or.....

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    You need to get a lawyer and fight it. Don't let some self-righteous pig push you around.

    If it is a criminal offense do not say anymore about it until you have spoken to an attorney, and I wonder why you haven't done that already.

    Never speak to anyone in uniform regarding any offense unless you have an attorney present. You are not required to do so in any way. Show I.D. and keep your mouth shut. Let your attorney do the talking. An example of the gravity of engaging in any interaction with a uniform is to remember: lying to a cop is a felony, doesn't matter if you simply made a mistake, or didn't remember, too bad so sad. You need to be careful, uniforms are not your friends, they are there to arrest, or in your case, hand out tickets. Be polite, respectful, maintain a non-threatening attitude and bodyposture, get your ticket and then give it to your lawyer. I know you attempted to explain your position, and used logic, reason and common-sense. But these do not work anymore because the uniforms have been trained in the "us against them" mentality. As has been posted, some may be reasonable, if they were (are), then you wouldn't have a ticket now would you?

    I have had a few interactions with Troopers, and they have been totally professional. The few DNR guys I have seen are dorks hiding behind badges. Keep your cool.

  20. #20
    Member AKdutch's Avatar
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    Default interaction with LE

    Nitroman,

    “Never speak to anyone in uniform regarding any offense unless you have an attorney present. You are not required to do so in any way.”

    This attitude is probably the reason you have bad experiences with LE

    “An example of the gravity of engaging in any interaction with a uniform is to remember: lying to a cop is a felony, doesn't matter if you simply made a mistake, or didn't remember, too bad so sad”

    Can you show me anywhere that it is written in any Alaska Statutes that it is illegal to lie to a Police Officer? I’d like to know where you get your information. It is not illegal to lie to an Officer unless he is conducting an investigation and you lie about who you are and he was going to cite you for a violation or you have an arrest warrant. But, why would you want to lie to an Officer if you did nothing wrong?


    “You need to be careful, uniforms are not your friends, they are there to arrest, or in your case, hand out tickets”

    Again, this attitude is probably the reason you have bad experiences with LE

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