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Thread: Hatchery Fish are Unnatural?

  1. #1
    Member AKBassking's Avatar
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    Unhappy Hatchery Fish are Unnatural?

    Have you seen this story?

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295359,00.html


    I guess the Environmental Waco Terrorists are now against hatcheries!

    This could affect Alaska in a BIG way!

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    Member Valley Trash's Avatar
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    They are not against hatcheries, they are against development, and they are using the Endangeres Species Act as a tool to get what they want.

  3. #3
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valley Trash View Post
    They are not against hatcheries, they are against development, and they are using the Endangeres Species Act as a tool to get what they want.
    I agree that they're against development, but for many it goes well beyond that:

    They oppose humanity itself. It isn't difficult to find (even on this very forum) people who rant against mankind itself and propose that we actually take steps to make mankind go away.

    It's complete ideological foolishness, and it won't last much more than a century or so, IMO. When the state/national economy comes apart and/or we can't find/afford fuel with which to carry on modern life, I plan to be among the first to point out the role of the environmental ideology in the catastrophe.

    They've been waging ideological/legal warfare with humanity for a few decades now. When it turns on them, lots of them will get run over...............

  4. #4
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Although hatcheries have an important role to play in restoring depleted salmon stocks, I do think there is an important ecological difference between wild runs and hatchery-enhanced runs. Furthermore, we need to take a serious look at what we are doing with large scale hatchery programs like the Prince William Sound Aquaculture Association. Dumping 100 million+ smolt into the Sound every year absolutely has an effect on the North Pacific ecosystem. It is blind foolishness to think that ocean ranching of this type can be done without any effect whatsoever. Perhaps it is worth it, but we should at least have some research that shows what is going on. As it is, we just dump the smolt and hope for the best.

    Whenever possible, we need to protect and promote wild stocks of fish. Hatcheries are not a replacement for healthy, in-tact habitat. (And no, I'm not anti-development at all - just a fisherman who cares about the resource and hopes for well planned development.)

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    Member SoggyMountain's Avatar
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    I know that the Golden North Salmon Derby in Juneau does not want any "black" kings turned in. They will neither receive them as prize fish, or as scholarship fish.

    I don't mind taking the silvers coming from the hatchery... they seem to retain their appearance and quality much better than the kings from the same place.

    When the chums return the channel turns black with them. I feel there is an effect of this biomass that goes beyond the stench.... though I can't prove it.

  6. #6

    Default Those people should step up to the plate man

    [QUOTE=Mark;139859](even on this very forum) people who rant against mankind itself and propose that we actually take steps to make mankind go away.
    [QUOTE]

    I propose that those people step up to the plate then and be the first ones
    Hike faster. I hear banjo music.

  7. #7
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    .....It isn't difficult to find (even on this very forum) people who rant against mankind itself and propose that we actually take steps to make mankind go away................
    I propose that those people step up to the plate then and be the first ones
    Funny; when that is proposed to such folks, they don't think that's the solution to the problem (at least individually). They're all for it culturally, utilizing such tools as abortion and birth control, but in the end what they're accomplishing is genetic suicide instead of an end (or even a check) of humanity. Most of these type of people love Darwinism (natural selection), and also appear willing to just let other people/cultures take their place on the planet (because that's exactly what will occur when they kill off their own genetics).

    And they think they're smart...........

  8. #8

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    Liberalism=Worthless

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    Default You guys are idiots

    Other than Brian you guys have no idea what you are talking about and it shows. The hatchery debate in Washington and Oregon is ongoing because poor hatchery practices and the use of hatcheries to replace wild salmon stock so development can proceed has been a failure. If you want to read about it go to the UW and read some of Hilborn's comments and others at the university. Also, the adding of hatchery stocks to meet the endangered species act requirements did not recognize genetic and other factors that define a unique population. The judge was correct to overthrow it.

    I love the rants about environmentalism - you can thank those environmentalism for the Clean Water Act and other actions which have made this country capable of having wild fish populations.

    The attitude expressed in this thread and the one on global warming allowed this country to pollute its rivers and destroy its forest. It allowed the spilling of toxic material into our rivers, lakes, and oceans until they could not support life in some cases. It allowed the Love Canal (most of you are probably too young to know about that) and toxic chemicals to be spewed into the air and waters so today we have concentrations of heavy metals in our bodies, pesticides in our bodies, and chemicals added to foods that we have no idea how they impact children yet alone adults.

    So Mark and the other idiots who think environmental concerns are crazy - you are demostrating your greed again. No concern about anything that impacts the future - just your self gratification for today - and they call Larry Craig immoral.

    Your a waste of time on this forum with these rants without any substance to your position. You demostrate one thing - our educational system failed you in some way.

  10. #10
    Member SoggyMountain's Avatar
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    I'm going to take exception here Nerka. I think my opinion (as unscientific as it is) holds credibility in this thread.

    Secondly, I'm sure I'm one of the "5 or 6 whackos" labelled in a different thread. Because I don't kill for fun, I don't need to build a road or support every development proposed for profit. Not to mention the fact that I agree with you on the clean water and air.

    So, be careful where you start swinging that branding iron.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    You demonstrate one thing - our educational system failed you in some way.
    We took our two kids out of public schools in 1979 and educated them at home until they both entered Junior College at age 16 . . .

    A good book: http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-C.../dp/086571231X

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    I am in agreement with Brian and Nerka. The hatchery fish are viewed as a last option and less stable. Many hatcheries are producing a monoculture of fish. Typically, there is a desire to breed the largest fish, which can lead to a genetic defect that spans several generations. I remember reading several years ago about king salmon (I think in bristol bay) have a heart condition where they had holes in their hearts. In this regards it is important to mix all sizes and coloring of salmon in order to prevent the creation of a monoculture.

    As far as environmentalist, I suspect most of you have more in common with them than you do with corporate business folks. The business man has been beating you down for years, talking you into voting against your own interests, and carrying "their" tax cuts in return for nothing. Being played a "chump" comes to mind here, but as long as you can blame everything on scary boogie man "liberals," "environmentalists," and "the media " (e.g., a distraction) everything will be okay and corporate profits can continue to put the squeeze on the poor and the blue collar working folks. Oh yeah, did not the corporate groups that sold poor and working folks sub prime loans just get bailed out by the
    government because they were going to lose their shirts? Glad to see the market is taking care of itself. I suppose the saying in conservative circles is that "You have to be against government interference in business, until your oil company, corporation, mortgage company, stock market, or savings and loan is about to go broke and you beg for a government bail out."

    Stop drinking the kool-aid!


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    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    I am not a bio nor am I an expert on hatchery management.

    It is my assumption that hatchery runs no matter the species, lack the genetic depth or diversity (or whatever the proper term) of wild fish. From my experience on rivers where wild fish and hatchery fish run together, wild fish tend to be more vibrant--better configured and colored, and stronger.

    So to the question are hatchery fish natural?

    I think it depends on the context. Are they fake fish? No, but even if they're fish derived from native stock they're not fully representative of wild fish. Successive generations of hatchery fish would seem susceptible to an eventual genetic homogeny.

    If fish of the same species but a different strain are used to repopulate a river then that river's original wild fish are doomed unless steps to prevent hatchery fish from spawning are put in place.

    Sadly for the fish and us political meddling exacerbates these problems.

    Genetic diversity at every level is intrinsically valuable. That value cannot and should not be reduced to mere dollars or votes.

  14. #14

    Default do some reading....

    If any of you naysayers are truly interested in understanding the problem and history of using hatchery to "replace" wild and native fish you need to sit down and read "Salmon Without Rivers....A History of the Pacific Salmon Crisis" by Jim Lichtatowich.....it's on Amazon. Although salmon of any particular species are considered a single species they have been divided into ESU (evolutionary significant units) geographically due to differences in spawning behaviour for individual drainages. Without going into a lengthy explanation let's just say that continuing to pour in hatchery fish, willy nilly, is only harming the wild stocks further. Salmon ranching needs to be scrutinized also and I don't even want to get into salmon farming and its deleterious effects. Due to Atlantic salmon farms in B.C. they now have naturally spawning atlantics documented in several rivers on Vancouver Island.

    Although some people involved may be wacko "enviornmentalists" there are many which are not but are only relying on science dealing with the heavily damaged salmon stocks in Oregon and Washington. Many hatchery stocks have been selected for desireable traits....large size, easy to grow in hatcheries, etc...characteristics that have no particular value in the wild stocks. Read the above book and it will give you an great history of the whole hatchery situation.

    Brian

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    Default Ignorance Is Bliss!

    You guys prove it to me again! The more ignorant the individual, the more simplistic and personal the replies become.

    Listen you conservative jerks - the world is not out to get you or your personal freedoms. Quite the contrary, the scientific community (of which I am a member) is using powerful tools to come up with solutions to the mess you conservatives have left!

    Contrary to your belief - the world was not put here to be used as your toilet. You do not have the right to shoot/eat/mine/drill every piece of the planet (including the headwaters of world class fisheries).

    Hatcheries unfortunately were a logical, but failed, attempt to solve the devastation left behind by logging, commercial fishing, mining, agriculture, and over development (Think Conservatives!). If that's how you want Alaska then have at it boys - I'll fight you every step of the way.


    "When religion ruled the world, they called it the Dark Ages."

  16. #16
    Member SoggyMountain's Avatar
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    Default Seconds

    Soconds to Erik, and seconds to Doc.

    If you read my post, you'd realize that I do prefer wild fish to hatchery fish. The same way I prefer venison to beef.

    "Black Kings" are a staple in the Juneau diet.... you might see 50 people snagging them at any given time, but, they NEVER enter my home. Moreover, they are not accepted by the Territorial Sportsman as a commodity fish during the Golden North Salmon Derby. Neither for prizes or for scholarships.

    I will take hatchery silvers for the smoker. They are (for now) of good enough quality to process in this house.

    Hatcheries have their place in Alaska... I do believe that. But, I'll take a, dare I say "organic" fish on this forum over a hatchery fish 100 times out of 100..... Then too, I'll take one of our hatchery silvers over 50 of your wild humpies or chum.

  17. #17
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Other than Brian you guys have no idea what you are talking about and it shows. The hatchery debate in Washington and Oregon is ongoing because poor hatchery practices and the use of hatcheries to replace wild salmon stock so development can proceed has been a failure....
    Everything about the damming of the Columbia was a failure, except for the generation of electrical energy when it was most important.

    Or did you completely disregard that fact?.........

    .....I love the rants about environmentalism - you can thank those environmentalism for the Clean Water Act and other actions which have made this country capable of having wild fish populations..
    The Clean Water Act was a blessing. It was the first of the basic environmentalism that was long overdue.

    That doesn't mean that what we presently endure as "environmentalism" is good.

    ......The attitude expressed in this thread and the one on global warming allowed this country to pollute its rivers and destroy its forest. It allowed the spilling of toxic material into our rivers, lakes, and oceans until they could not support life in some cases. It allowed the Love Canal (most of you are probably too young to know about that) and toxic chemicals to be spewed into the air and waters so today we have concentrations of heavy metals in our bodies, pesticides in our bodies, and chemicals added to foods that we have no idea how they impact children yet alone adults.....
    I remember Love Canal. And I remember the hippies who ignorantly fell in love with it and who are still in love with it.

    Nobody wants to live on the banks of Love Canal. And today, it isn't happening.

    ...So Mark and the other idiots who think environmental concerns are crazy - you are demostrating your greed again. No concern about anything that impacts the future - just your self gratification for today - and they call Larry Craig immoral....
    Yup.

    I want a secure environment and economy. And I'll get it, too.

    ......Your a waste of time on this forum with these rants without any substance to your position. You demostrate one thing - our educational system failed you in some way.
    I don't think so. I'm very well educated.

    I may not be a biologist, but I've got my own degree. And I'm pretty good at what I did professionally.

    And I won't declare that I'm right.

    I just oppose your position on certain things.

    I believe I'm right, but that is a matter that has yet to be determined, despite what you say.

  18. #18
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    Default Educated Idiot

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post

    Your a waste of time on this forum with these rants without any substance to your position. You demostrate one thing - our educational system failed you in some way.
    Speaking of our educational system failure!!!!

    It is "You're"
    Not Your.

    Here is an example for all of the educated idiots on this forum ie; Nerka

    Its your turn too make an azz of yourself with YOUR name calling. Grow up! You're (you are) acting childish with all of you name calling! It is not hard to see who the "waste" is!




  19. #19
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskariverrat View Post
    ......As far as environmentalist, I suspect most of you have more in common with them than you do with corporate business folks. The business man has been beating you down for years, talking you into voting against your own interests, and carrying "their" tax cuts in return for nothing. Being played a "chump" comes to mind here, but as long as you can blame everything on scary boogie man "liberals," "environmentalists," and "the media " (e.g., a distraction) everything will be okay and corporate profits can continue to put the squeeze on the poor and the blue collar working folks.....
    Sorry, but "profit" is a whole lot older than "environmentalism".

    Some of us are quite familiar with it, even those of us who have calloused hands.

    .....Oh yeah, did not the corporate groups that sold poor and working folks sub prime loans just get bailed out by the government because they were going to lose their shirts?....
    Nope.

    They did (or will) get bailed out because if they go down, we all go down with them.

    ......Glad to see the market is taking care of itself. I suppose the saying in conservative circles is that "You have to be against government interference in business, until your oil company, corporation, mortgage company, stock market, or savings and loan is about to go broke and you beg for a government bail out."....
    I oppose the bailouts, too.

    I want the hurt to go from the top all the way down

    ...Stop drinking the kool-aid....
    I've grown up.

    I'm into beer.

    The more, the better........

  20. #20
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    I say lets trap all salmon on the columbia and run them through the hatcheries till we have enough to keep enough fish in it to keep it out of the endangered species act. Why do we need naturally spawned salmon? I mean heck, when people don't want salmon anymore we can just shut down the hatcheries. And if funding goes away, so do all the salmon. No big deal.

    I have seen the damage done in my old home state from the 1800's that is still being felt today. Runs of shad up certain streams that have not seen them in 100 years. Bass and rockfish living in streams that used to have brook trout over 20 inches now too warm for brown trout. But these streams now have fish. 100 years ago they ran black from all the pollution.

    I beleive in conservation and the use of our natural resources but you must be willing to give a little each way.

    Just my $0.02
    Dave

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