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Thread: What constitutes guiding?

  1. #1
    Member CanCanCase's Avatar
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    Default What constitutes guiding?

    I'm fairly familiar with the "duties" of a regular guide/outfitter.... baiting hooks, showing you where and how to fish, etc... In SE, most guides are also boat captains, so there's a transportation component involved too...

    Knowing all of that, would it (or SHOULD it) also be considered guiding to drive a boat to a known good halibut hole and drift over the spot (running off other boats) while you wait for 4 bareboat charter clients to arrive. Then show them the exact spot to anchor on, and wish them good luck.

    On one hand, it seems easy to find the spot, as there are always several boats fishing there. On the other, I can stay at lodge "A" and pay for guided fishing trips, or lodge "B" and save money while I take limits of over 32" halibut home day after day....

    If it's just a matter of the "guide" not being on the same boat while the "clients" fish, I'll have to bring along a good book and read from the dinghy next trip out...

    Can anyone justify what I've seen, or is this as obvious an attempt to circumvent guide regulations as I think it is?

    -Case
    M/V CanCan - 34' SeaWolf - Bandon, OR
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  2. #2

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    I thought it would be helpful for this discussion to post the following definitions:

    http://www.sf.adfg.state.ak.us/state.../GBusiness.cfm

    AS 16.40.299. Definitions.
    "sport fishing guide" means a person who is licensed to provide sport fishing guide services to persons who are engaged in sport fishing

    "sport fishing guide services" means assistance, for compensation or with the intent to receive compensation, to a sport fisherman to take or to attempt to take fish by accompanying or physically directing the sport fisherman in sport fishing activities during any part of a sport fishing trip; "sport fishing guide services" does not include
    sport fishing services; or
    services provided by an assistant, deckhand, or similar person who works directly under the supervision of and on the same vessel as a sport fishing guide;

    "sport fishing services" means the indirect provision of assistance, for compensation or with the intent to receive compensation, to a person engaged in sport fishing in taking or attempting to take fish or shellfish by a business that employs a sport fishing guide to provide sport fishing guide services to the person during any portion of a sport fishing trip; "sport fishing services" does not include
    an activity for which a sport fishing guide license is required; or
    booking and other ancillary services provided by a tour broker or agent to a sport fishing services operator.



    When the new guide licensing requirements went into effect there were questions asked regarding pilots who fly clients out to an area and if the pilots needed to be licensed as a guide. The general response from an enforcement point of view was the pilot would need to make sure he is not involved in any aspect of the fishing activity. Directing clients where to fish on the bank or shore is considered assisting the sport fisherman. It was recommended that if the pilot did not want to get licensed as a sport fishing guide that he either remain in the airplane and read a book or else be very careful.

  3. #3
    Member SoggyMountain's Avatar
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    Default

    Technically I say they are absolutely guiding. There may be some loophole in there regarding compensation... That is, if the lodge is not charging for any beyond room nights and food, they might argue that this is no different than taking their customers berry picking. Just another activity for their guests to do "for free."

    But, if the "activity" is used as a selling point for the lodging, then, compensation has to be considered.

    In the case you describe, I think the lodge owners will fall into disfavor with everyone on the water excepting their clients. Local sport fishermen will dislike them. Charter/guides will dislike them. Fish and Game might want to try a sting on them. And, their reputation in Alaska will be tainted.

    I already don't like them and I don't even know who they are! I think they are most certainly guiding, definitely outfitting, and probably pirating.

  4. #4
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    just curious... why would drifting over a hole run off other boats in the area??? why would they care, and why would they leave? just due to the presence of another boat? or is there something about drifting over the hole that would run them off?? or something else? just wondering.
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  5. #5
    Member CanCanCase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw3 View Post
    just curious... why would drifting over a hole run off other boats in the area??? why would they care, and why would they leave? just due to the presence of another boat? or is there something about drifting over the hole that would run them off?? or something else? just wondering.
    Without giving too much detail so as to disclose the parties involved, let's call it "aggressive seamanship" with the apparent intent of keeping other boats from anchoring there until the "clients" arrived in their boat. Being one to always avoid collision, I had no choice but to find another spot to fish. No big deal for me, but it sure pissed a few other folks off.

    The real point that I'm having trouble with is that when I provide equipment, location, supervision, etc. for fishing activities and expect compensation, it's called "Guiding"... but when someone else does exactly the same thing - only difference is that another boat is involved for the alleged-guide to sit in - it's not technically defined as guiding at this time. It's bound to piss off a few clients when I have to limit my guided clients to one fish over and one fish under 32" while folks from a few dishonest lodges can come fish along side me, pull 2 barn-doors, run them to the dock, then come back for 2 more, and so on and so on...

    -Case
    M/V CanCan - 34' SeaWolf - Bandon, OR
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #6

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    I would say if thew lodge is supplying the clients with the boats and fishing gear then they are providing services as a guide. If the clients are using their own boat and gear then it would be legal, not right but legal.
    Also if you are engaged in fishing outside shipping lanes, any boat that is under power must give you the right of way which also means that they are not supposed to position themselves as to create a hazard to vessels engaged in fishing. That is a Coast Guard regulation. Personally if someone was trying to move me from a fishing hole with "aggressive seamanship" when I was already there I would have to fight the urge to shoot a hole in his boat and call the Coast Guard to report a boat with an apparent impaired captain that is creating a hazard to mariners in that area.

  7. #7
    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Default "right of way"

    when applied to fishing as in the CG regs means commercial fishing only, as due to deployed nets or working pots or longlines a vessel has impaired maneuverability.
    the tactics described are obviously an attempt to circumvent the up and coming halibut charter restrictions which will restrict numbers or size of halibut landed on a "charter". a rental is NOT a charter. i know one skipper who looked at the regs and figured he could take clients out, give them an inflatable and string them off his stern and they would not be landing halibut on his boat...not that he is planning on this, but just shows how the rules are ..well...just stupid, i guess.
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  8. #8

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    If the regs say that "providing assistance to clients for compensation" then to me it sounds like if you are a licensed guide, as soon as someone steps on your vessel and you either transport them someplace to catch fish or they fish from your vessel then you are providing a guide service.

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