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Thread: Good job ADF&G

  1. #1
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    Default Good job ADF&G

    I thought I would start a new thread and point out that ADF&G did a good job this year. Today, the sockeye counts indicate that the Kasilof, Kenai, and Crescent goals have been met or exceeded. In Kenai the counts are 760,000 sockeye and counting around 20,000 a day - the goal range is 750,000 to 950,000 so they will be well in the goal range or over when this is done. Kasilof and Crescent are slightly over the goal range.

    Yentna sockeye counts are 78,000 and counting 3000 a day. The goal range is 90-160k and they should make the goal.

    Chinook counts and harvest estimates indicate that the upper end of the goal will be reached -35k. While we may have quesitons about the exact number because of the sonar counter the escapement numbers appear to be good.

    Coho are entering the rivers and counts are increasing in the Susitna River and other systems.

    Pink salmon are doing fine along with chum salmon.

    So at this point of the season I say well done ADF&G.

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    I would have to agree. I had a hard time getting fish this year, but overall the numbers in river seem good. That is what it is all about, not really how many i put in the canner/freezer. This year it looks like the resource wins!!

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    Default kudos

    I am a guide on the kenai. This is not a popular sentiment among us but I feel that managers of the resource deserve credit for another job well done.. I have been doing this for almost 30 years and we still have fish to fight over... If you go back and read my previous posts you will see this has always been my position. I don't believe the sonar is all that accurate but it has a history of consistent error which still makes it very useful information. Had a pretty decent king year, had to work for them some days... well, most days, but we usually got the fish. It would be nice if sometimes the windows were a little longer to let some fish in, but I will leave that one to the experts to figure out. I trust they will. They have done a fine job considering they are trying to keep commercial, sport, like myself,personal use, subsistence and in river commercial users, like myself, happy. Everybody cannot get what they want all the time. Thanks for your efforts!

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    Yep, I actually agree with Nerka and Gotfish. ADF&G does a good job of providing all with fish, we are lucky to have fish to fight over. Although I do wish the "windows" between openings were a little longer. An right on que the silvers are hitting the Kenai. (sorry Nerka, have to say it, right after the nets come out, lol)

  5. #5
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    Thumbs up Thumbs UP!

    Great job!

    Now if we can only get BOF and BOG on board!

    ALASKAN SEA-DUCTION
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  6. #6

    Default kidding right?

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Yep, I actually agree with Nerka and Gotfish. ADF&G does a good job of providing all with fish, we are lucky to have fish to fight over. Although I do wish the "windows" between openings were a little longer. An right on que the silvers are hitting the Kenai. (sorry Nerka, have to say it, right after the nets come out, lol)
    I respectfully disagree with you Yukon. In Oregon and Washington the commercial fisheries decimated the King salmon runs to many rivers including the Columbia. When the runs were already reduced to a fraction of historical aboundance, the dams without fish ladders were built on the Columbia and Elwa rivers which ended forever the runs of giant 100lb salmon that spawned in those systems. Now the only river in the United States of America that has the genetics to produce 100lb King salmon is being slowly strangled in the name of money and Sockeye management.

    The Alaska comercial fishery harvests 260, million salmon per year. Care to guess how many salmon are harvested by sport anglers in the state of Alaska?

    They manage for commercial fishing and sportfishers get to fight for the leftovers. If it wasn't for the rareness of the giant Kenai kings, (If Kenai kings were just average king salmon) I would not bother wasting my time trying to save them. Look how rare the 70lb fish are now compared to 15 years ago. In 1994 the average fish in my driftboat was 50lbs.

    I ask is it any diferent to slowly kill off a race of giant kings than to put a dam up and eliminate them quickly?

    When you are dealing with so many diferent age classes of Kings, it is harder to see the effects. The 7 year old fish that were supposed to return this year seemed to be replaced by 3-4 year olds, and can we remember what the run was like as far as 7 year olds are concerned 7 years ago? It is hard to see the results of a spawn in respect to Kenai kings because it takes so long to unfold. Every once in a while you get a decent escapement and since the ofspring from that escapement tend to come back as diferent age classes it adds total aboundance numbers to each season. It doesn't come out as black and white as a run of 2 year old fish like Pink salmon would.

    Aside from the biological nightmare that is hapening to the Kenai. What about the tourists that save their whole life to visit Alaska and fish in the rivers that are supposed to produce a fish with every cast? They probably realize that that is exageration most of the time, but they expect to have a reasonable chance to catch something. The only thing that is bringing tourists to the Kenai for King salmon now is its reputation for producing lots of big Kings. If 0 Kings returned to the Kenai next season we could still fill our boats with clients for a few years based on the reputation of the river, if we were dishonest buisnessmen.

    Alaska fish and game counts boats and at one time they told me that there were 400+ boats on the river early in July. 4 rods per boat= 1600 fishermen all of which had King stamps and licenses and the sonar count for the day was 500 Kings. Asume that that count was acurate over 1000 people were guarenteed to get skunked that day.

    I know that fishing is grand from mid August on on the Kenai, but as far as King fishing is concerned (with the exception of the ocasional 50lb fish) King fishing is far beter in Oregon and Washington than it is on the Kenai and Kasilof rivers.

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    Sure didn't take this thread long to head south.

    Nice try, Nerka. . .

    Am I missing something, or are all the negative remarks coming from guides? Correct me if I'm wrong. . .


  8. #8
    Member CanCanCase's Avatar
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    Default

    I'll agree with the general sentiment that ADF&G does (did) a good job managing our fisheries resources. The Alaska fish and game management plans are better than anywhere else I've been, and should be held in high regard as a model for resource managers everywhere.

    What we really need is to get them to stop playing politics (ha!) Mr. Lloyd is very good at petting the recreational interests on the head while stabbing them in the back at the same time... I can almost hear him saying, "Good doggie... we'll give you your 2 halibut this year..." as he mutters under his breath "as long as you don't mind giving up all of your rock-fish!"

    I guess the real problem that irks me (continually) is that ADF&G isn't left alone to manage several of the fisheries where it is so desperately needed. When it comes to Federally (or Internationally) managed species and waters, ADF&G is nearly powerless to implement anything based on the MSY principle that's been so successful for many years now.

    Sorry this slipped into a bit of a political rant. Overall, I do agree that ADF&G does a great job managing what it's allowed to manage. Now, does anyone have any advice on how to accurately measure an angry Ling Cod that's required to fit into a 5-inch slot?!?? I wouldn't want a client's ONE fish to cause him to get a ticket..

    -Case
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    Did you actually read the posts Marcus?

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    Actually I am starting to lump hawgboss and Marcus together. I don't really know what Hawgboss was trying to say except how bad commercial fishing is.
    I think he was saying that the average size of Kings was going down?
    I think Marcus was trying to say that only guides had posted (must have missed mine?)

    I don't really know as both just stated previous sentiments.

    Hawgboss I see what you were saying but you totally lost me bringing commecials stuff into it and how many salmon they caught. You told Marcus in another thread to stop comparing all # to king numbers and you are doing it backwards.......how many of the total harvest were reds and pinks? Wasn't your post about Kings and the size? Maybe guides taking a bunch of clients who only keep big Kings is the problem? (not saying it is but tell me why not?) I know myself, as an alaskan resident will keep any size king until I get my 5 for the freezer..

    Yukon, Nerka and bassking, and gotfish I appreciate you post!!! I am not a guide but I fish. I wish windows were a little longer, but honestly just wish they were a little more predictable.

    CanCan your post was kinda confusing.......Halibut are managed by IPHC. (international Pacific Halibut Comm). Lings are managed by the feds, but recreationally by the state. Rockfish are manged by the feds, except black rockfish which are the state. I think the feds leave all rockfish sportfishing to the state though. I think I feel your pain on MSY but honestly I think they (IPHC, NMFS, and ADF&G ) try. Are you talking about salmon or Halibut really would be my question.

    I know as a recreational angler that sometimes I will catch fish sometimes not. I know I WANT to catch fish, but when it comes to salmon I need luck on my side. It used to bother me until I understood that no one OWED me any fish. I think ADF&G did a great job this year of making sure that there would be fish to catch (or at least the oppertunity to catch) in the upcoming years. I agee with yukon and others that the management should consider sport fish more than they currently do.........but not at the expense of the rivers themselves.

  11. #11
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    Default Positive and negative. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Akbrownsfan View Post
    I think Marcus was trying to say that only guides had posted (must have missed mine?)
    Actually, I did see your positive post and was only asking whether all the negative commentary was coming from guides. . .

    Thanks. . .




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    Default lets be fair

    Marcus, You could have said that some guides agreed that Fish and Game had done a good job.... seems to me a few of us weighed in to say so. I am starting to think that you are just against guides, period. I have paid my dues and am a good ambassador for the river. People want to fish the Kenai and Kasilof rivers. Somebody is going to be taking them because they do not have the skill or equipment to take themselves. We are filling a need. Many of us do trips for free to accomodate veterans and kids and the ill who otherwise would not be able to go. Many of us try to be the most curteous anglers on the river. We tow boats in. We give people bait. We give people lures that are working. We move over to make room for more boats. We want to get along with everybody, but many peoples pre-conceived perception of us makes that a hard thing to do. I know that there are issues about the number of guides. I know that we are not all totally well behaved. But i know from being on the river a lot that as a group we behave pretty well. The real problem here is that so many want to come here to fish. Thats not our fault. Once again, thanks to Fish and Game for a job well done.

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    Default then why come here?

    Hey hawg boss, if fishing is so much better in washington and oregon why do you come here? Could it have to do with that dollar you are accusing fish and game of managing in favor of?

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    Smile Guides are not the problem. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by gotfish? View Post
    Marcus, You could have said that some guides agreed that Fish and Game had done a good job.... seems to me a few of us weighed in to say so. I am starting to think that you are just against guides, period. I have paid my dues and am a good ambassador for the river. People want to fish the Kenai and Kasilof rivers. Somebody is going to be taking them because they do not have the skill or equipment to take themselves. We are filling a need. Many of us do trips for free to accomodate veterans and kids and the ill who otherwise would not be able to go. Many of us try to be the most curteous anglers on the river. We tow boats in. We give people bait. We give people lures that are working. We move over to make room for more boats. We want to get along with everybody, but many peoples pre-conceived perception of us makes that a hard thing to do. I know that there are issues about the number of guides. I know that we are not all totally well behaved. But i know from being on the river a lot that as a group we behave pretty well. The real problem here is that so many want to come here to fish. Thats not our fault. Once again, thanks to Fish and Game for a job well done.
    Couldn't agree more. . . As stated over and over again elsewhere, I have never been and am not now in favor of limiting guide numbers. Guides are, as you note above, simply a free-market response to "opportunity."

    I am in favor of limiting "opportunity.*" letting guide numbers adjust on their own to the market.

    *for example: limiting the number of fish nonresidents can take out of state. Say, 50 lbs. per head-of-house with 10 lbs. for each additional family member. Options for limiting opportunity are endless. Guides aren't the problem. . . the problem is "opportunity."


  15. #15

    Default Thumbs up...

    I agree that the guys and gals at ADF&G had the greatest intentions and made the best decisions based on the data available to them. I understand the damage caused by over escapement and thus understand the need to manage the sockeye via commercial fishing. Indeed, the in river sockeye was very stable and predictable this year.

    I too wish for larger windows. And while I am wishing, I wished there was a way to slow the incidental king catch by the set netters. I also wished there was a way to determine/estimate the size of the in-river kings... while the number may have been good, it seems that the number of 1-3 ocean kings is on the increase.

    I for one would not want to sit in the seat of the ADF&G decision makers and I do appreciate their hard work.

    Just like Gotfish... I too have supported science driven management and am not anti-commerical (commercial fishing is helping pay for my son's college this year... wooooo hooooo!!!).

    Nerka, thanks for this thread, and your quest to keep things on track with data driven arguments.

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    Member moose-head's Avatar
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    Default

    I hate to hijack this thread, but I think that the fish managers do a good job at managing the resources

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    and if they didn't triple escapement on the russian 4 years ago there would be a russian run this year
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akbrownsfan View Post
    ...CanCan your post was kinda confusing.......Halibut are managed by IPHC. (international Pacific Halibut Comm). Lings are managed by the feds, but recreationally by the state. Rockfish are manged by the feds, except black rockfish which are the state. I think the feds leave all rockfish sportfishing to the state though. I think I feel your pain on MSY but honestly I think they (IPHC, NMFS, and ADF&G ) try. Are you talking about salmon or Halibut really would be my question.
    ...
    I'm talking about groundfish in general this year. The state is involved because they're the ones licensing the guides. (They're also the ones who SEPARATED the guides from the CommFish sector a few years ago...further confusing the issue.) I heard from countless F&G officials (Lloyd, Hepler, Glynn, etc.) all about how ADF&G was against letting the IPHC take away ANY of "our fish", but there was nothing they could do. When it was suggested that they implement their own limits to pre-empt any federal ruling, we were told "The State wouldn't want to "double whammy" everyone with more restrictive limits." Then what happens? Lings get cut to 1 in a 5" slot... rockfish get cut to 1, 2 or 3 and we have to keep the teeny ones until limits are reached. Who do you think does more damage to the yelloweye population? Me with my 1 hook or a longliner with 1000?

    To keep this on-topic: ADF&G does a brilliant job (IMHO) of managing the resources they're given to manage. The State of Alaska has done an absolutely SUCKY job of fighting for its right to manage many of those resources. Who gave away the state's halibut in the first place? (Rhetorical question... save the answers.) Most fisheries that I'm involved in which are not ADF&G managed are over-harvested and in grave danger.

    Okay, that's enough political (and blood pressure raising) ranting for now. I'll save the rest until October. I promised my wife I'd go fishing tomorrow to get my mind off of .... errr.... fishing...?

    -Case
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by gotfish? View Post
    Hey hawg boss, if fishing is so much better in washington and oregon why do you come here? Could it have to do with that dollar you are accusing fish and game of managing in favor of?
    Who are you?

    King fishing in Oregon and Wash. is slow in July and august due to low water and high water temperatures. Since fishing is my only job, I fish AK during July and used to fish from mid may- mid sept in AK.

    As with any job the primary reason to do it is for the money. I chose to fish the Kenai because I love those big fish that seem to be taken for granted by some.

    As I eluded to in my other post, ADFG gets paid double for its fish. They make money from the permits and allow the fish to be neted, (thus the neter pays tax on his catch, I do not know if fish and game gets part of this money or not but the borough does) and they sell a tourist a king stamp and license for fish that no longer exist. The guide gets paid and in turn pays the borough tax. There is at least 2 negatives in this program, the fish don't spawn, and the tourist doesn't get to feel or see the power of the great fish.

    I am lucky that I get a lot of catch and release fishermen, I also have a lot of clients that will keep the smaller kings, this year we did not kill any fish over 45lbs. I get paid weather I kill fish or not, but as a neter, killing fish is mandatory if you are going to make money.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    ....Am I missing something, or are all the negative remarks coming from guides?....
    It's rather predictable for the folks nearer the bottom of the pecking order to be the ones to complain.

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