Can we chat about outboards?
Well, I did manage to find a 19' grumman in great shape (thanks Chuck), and I am now looking for an appropriate motor for my canoe.
I have been advised that a 7.5 HP does fine and to be cautious going larger then a 10 HP. On the other hand I have heard from an old time grumman guy that bigger is better and to get a 15+HP setup.
Assuming that I will usually be fairly well loaded, with the potential to be heavily loaded, and will rarely be doing much lake travel. And assuming that I will have a well designed lift, what do people recommend for a motor size?
I have currently found
an 18 HP short shaft which, according to the owner weighs about 75-80lbs,
A 9.9 HP Evinrude short shaft weighing 70lbs
and a 10 HP Merc short shaft coming in at 75 lbs.
Any thoughts about these motors?
Does anyone have a outboard for sale that would be well suited for my application?
Do you 10 HP guys wish you had a bit more? Or how about you 15 horse fellows, do you feel like you might have more then you really need?
Thanks for the help
outboards for 19' Grumman
I have a 15hp 2-stroke Yamaha on mine and have never wished I had less power. The 9.9's and the 15's are usually the same basic motor in different states of tune, i.e., no weight penalty for going with 15hp. Mine weighs approx. 78#. 4-strokers are about 20% heavier for the same power.
Rick is right on the money. The difference between a 9.9 and a 15 is in the carb. I have an Osage with a lift, on it I put a 15hp short shaft Johnson. It was the lightest 15hp I could find. I have had it in the Tanana, Chena, many lakes and I am taking it to the Clearwater this weekend. I have never been underpowered. Go with the lightest and largest engine you can ( within reason of corse). Good luck.
I've been styming over the same thing and have heard exactly the same opions about bigger and smaller engines each from experienced river people. I really wanted a 9.9 Honda as I have run Hondas on commercial boats(40 -200 hp) for years with great results. In the early 90's and back I ran 40 2sroke Yamahas. Better engines than the rest but not equal to the Hondas. Different situation though. There is only about 12 pounds of difference with a 15 hp Yamaha and a 9.9 Honda. Not as much difference as most people make as I'm 150 wet. Anymore thought? I too appreciate your opions
Yamaha 2S vs Honda 4S....
The Yamaha 2 stroke I have is a 2005 15hp short shaft, and weighs 78#dry wt. A 15hp Honda 4 stroke weighs 101#. Let's compare apples to apples. If you really go to lower hp 4 stroke motors you can have equal weight. But when I was looking for my motor, I wanted 15hp, not 9.9 or 8. And , for me it was the right decision.
Further, the new very recent Yamaha 2 strokers are a much more modern motor than the early '90's models you once used. My 15hp Yamaha uses oil at a rate of 100 to 1....and is both quiet and economical. In one trip of 170 miles...85 mi. downstream and 85 mi upstream....at full throttle...15 to 16 mph...I used 15 gallons of gas.
I, too, have a 19 year long history of faultless service from Hondas...cars, generators and especially 4 wheelers. One of my Honda 4whlrs gave me 13 years of hard service and it was still running like a top when I sold it. And I have a Honda Rubicon that is even better. A friend of mine has a 1990 TRX300 4x4 that now has 38,000 miles on it! Now that's quality. So I am loyal to Honda as long as they make what I need. And Yamaha makes dandy up to date 2 strokers, which is what I want....and Honda doesn't.
That's my opinion, for what it's worth.
Thanks for the info Rick. I had decided the 15hp honda was too heavy and was kind of hoping for a 9.9, but it looks as if averyone thinks it's not enough hp. I too believe the Yamahas are the best 2 stroke made A mechanic told me 2 strokes are better for long term storage as the cylinder walls don't rust like four strokes?Who knows
Yamaha and Honda
When I started my decision process/search for a motor for my 19footer, like you, I wanted a Honda. But it just didn't make sense to me to add 20# extra on the narrow stern (12") of a Grumman. On a Osage 17' it might be alright ...that boat is wider at the transom....18". And the fiberglass Scott freighters, made in Canada, are still wider...26". The whole goal is to improve the trim of the canoe. I'm happy with my choice....and the Yamaha wasn't any cheaper than a Honda either. The lighter weight 2 strokes are a plus for these canoes. You'll have fun with your Grumman.
I think the difference between the 9.9s and 15hp motors on a grumman are more a matter of speed and not really a matter of what load you can push up a river. I've used both, pushed loads with both (older 2-stroke evinrudes), and there were times in very fast water (steep chutes) when I was barely moving with a 9.9, but I still made it with the same load on board. I'd go with the highest hp I could get though, given the same weight of motor.
Most people on the upper-Yukon use "seymour sticks" to put the weight of the pilot farther front. Many people unaccustomed to using a seymour stick are uncomfortable sitting in the middle seat (or even the front seat) of a grumman freighter with a long pole attached to the tiller. It does take some getting used to but imo it is the only way to run a grumman. Below is a pic from last summer during high water when a friend brought a load up the river with us. He was using a 10hp honda 4-stroke, had 600lbs on board not including himself. He went slow at times but made it. He was not using a seymour stick and was sitting in the stern, and even though he had loaded a 100lbs right in the bow, take a look at how high the bow is out of the water with his weight and weight of motor right in the rear. I should note that a seymour stick can't be used in conjuction with a lift. The way I always set up my grumman was to build up the transom height so that the skeg of motor (I always used short-shaft motors) was right level with bottom of keel. This has some drawbacks in that the motor cavitates in standing waves when it is in the troughs, and also you sometimes have to stomp down in the rear to get it to initially dig into the water, but once it does you can work your way up to that middle seat and it's a much better way to balance the weight and move through the water. In shallow water, using a seymour stick and sitting in the middle or front seat with the above setup mentioned, you pretty much ground out on the keel before you hit the prop, and if you have a newer motor with a slip-clutch on the prop instead of shear pins it's really a good way to get up some creeks/rivers.
We always used radiator hose to attach seymour stick to the tiller handle, with hose clamps on the tiller and stick. I also ran a two-wire cord down my seymour stick with an on-off switch at the end so I could kill the motor without having to walk back to the back of the canoe when I was stopping along shore. You twist the seymour stick just like you do the tiller handle for throttle control. Don't have a pic of this setup offhand. That's my input fwiw.
Hi, Bushrat....how are things on the Yukon? I'm about through with Dan O'Neil's excellent book. Thanks for the referral. Makes a guy want to take that trip.
I'm interested in the Seymour Stick....I'm using a 50" u-jointed tiller extension and stand or sit on a 6 gallon plastic bucket (camp seat/sleeping bag dry storage) at the rear thwart. I've been thinking about putting a further extension onto that so I can move forward to the next thwart.
How long is the Seymour Stick?....and why can't you use it with the lift, if you still move to the rear to raise/lower the lift?
Great infor! Thanks Bushrat. Hope people keep responding.
out boards on canoes
get the most for your money, the 2 stroke is the way to go 4 stroke in the 10/15 hp is a lot of weight out back compaired to the 2 stroke there is about 25 lbs diff. as weight is what you are looking at, so what ever you get, it should be a 2 stroke, an as what type go for? what ever you want, parts an props are what to look at, OMC, HONDER,YAMAHA or what ever, I would not suggest the
4 cycle no matter what you get. the differance between the 10 or 15 is so small you cant tell, as for the tiller handle extendtion, you will need it I used a store gotten one, just don't get the flex one, it don't work for a canoe,
In large rivers an large lakes you can sit down but in a river that windes you will have to stand up to run, the tiller handle in the left, lift handle in your right, an your knees/lower legs on the twart of the canoe so you can see what you are going to """hit""" you cant sit down for a few hours an run the canoe with your left hand out your back side it will kill you, SID
Hi, glad you're enjoying Dan's book. I meant to imply that you can't operate a lift while sitting farther up with seymour stick. They vary in length depending on how far front you want to sit or stand. Mine reached all the way to the front seat, as that is where I liked to drive from when empty. So it was a long seymour stick. Which was often a pain in the rear if you wanted to use it from the middle seat, but you get used to it. I don't think I'd want to add onto your extension that already has the inherent "play" of the u-joint connection, unless you could somehow make it longer without adding more play to it. I like to stand up too at times while driving, but you'd never get me on top of a bucket I tell ya <grin>! I personally think that dealing with a lift and the whole seymour stick setup is too much going on back there, but most folks I know usually leave the lift set in one position anyway for the most part. Having a lift and using it while navigating upriver usually means you are relegated to standing in the stern anyway.
FYI, I wrote Seymour some years ago when I was writing about the "seymour stick," asking him if it was called that cuz he "invented" it, and guess around these parts that's why they call it a seymour stick. Not sure what it might be called elsewhere. I recall seeing Brad Snow and others from McPhee's book running up the Yukon sitting in the front seat with a seymour stick; which is how I learned to do it too, riding close to shore and taking advantage of all the slack water and eddies.
Bodak, good luck with your setup!
Am I correct that you use the "push/pull" steering technique?
what I have is a long pole on the tiller handle stear an gas
Yep, push/pull technique, mostly had seymour stick under my left arm, push to go right, pull to go left. And Sid, yes it's just a long pole to use for steering and throttle control.
This seymour unit is there a piviot point on the canoe or is it right on the tiller as I have never have seen it or heard of if so please help
A stick and hose with clamps certainly is a tough and easy to come by product. In the past I have always used an extention on commercial tiller boats at sea. I found that a piece of 1-1/2" thin wall pvc would slide right over most tiller handles. I taper sanded the inside edge and adjusted the lenght reducing down to 1" where my hand ranged and dipping this area in tool dip after sanding. It gave a really positive control and good grip when cold and wet. Never did but slotting back end area where it slides over tiller and adding a clamp would add security in case of a fall agains boat. Birch or willow pole sounds pretty cost effective and certainly tougher and less hasle. That was what old Dick was into was'nt it? Less hastle even in a cold camp with a cold stove.
Bodak, most of us just drawshaved a small spruce down for use as seymour sticks and poling poles. And Dick had some dang strange method of putting weight "in the bow" that I may have already told you about. I like to use a five gallon bucket (filled with water) in the bow as counterweight. Dick had a heavy triangular shapped rock that he put right on the very front of the grumman. I had occasion to borrow his setup once when I broke down coming back home. Right as I was leaving I took that rock off the bow and set it in front of the bow seat INSIDE the canoe. Dick's response: "If you don't put that rock back and leave it there, you ain't using my canoe." <grin>.
I left it there til I got around the corner from Sheep Creek before Seventymile...then set it in the canoe. One wrong move and that rock slides off the bow...well I know Dick regularly swamped or had problems so go figure. We all have different ways of doing things. And Sid, like Bodak explained, the pivot point between the seymour stick and the tiller handle is where the radiator hose goes over the two. It helps to not butt the stick right up against the tiller if you want to have a bit more play in the "joint" to turn.
One question I have had about steering so far forward is the inability to get to the gearshift. Mercury has shift on the throttle but everyone else has shifter at motor I believe. I don't think it would be much of a problem goingup stream but what about down? My head coffeemaker and hunt wife will never let me on river without her so ballast won't be too frequent a problem. The idea is gas going out, meat coming back, right! If you ever need another draw knife Bushrat let me know and I'l leave you one with Dennis at store. I have several extras.
Thanks For The Input As I Have A Store Gotten One, Not As Long But It Works Just Fine Sid