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Thread: Sugar as anti-biotic

  1. #1
    Member junkak's Avatar
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    Default Sugar as anti-biotic

    Big gaping wound? No hospital for miles?

    Instead of dropping the sugar in your coffee fill your wound with sugar, one of the world's best natural anti-biotics.

    I highly recommend taking a look at a book I have had for years. Fits snuggly into my field first-aid kit.

    Ditch Medicine

    There are some step-by-step procedures for treating minor and major wounds that will happen to some of us while in the field.

    I'm not trying to come off like a pitchman for the publisher but highly endorse this book for non-medical as well as trained professionals that will spend time away from society.

    Happy hunting and be safe!

  2. #2
    Member 8x57 Mauser's Avatar
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    Question Sounds painful

    Wouldn't that work the same way as salt? Disinfection via dessication?

    And (speaking from curiousity, not experience) wouldn't that sting like crazy?

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    Member broncoformudv's Avatar
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    Default

    The sugar causes osmosis which suck any moisture form the wound delaying bacterial growth. Yes the rapid drawing of fluid from the cells by osmosis does burn like heck.

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    Default

    I know bacteria thrives in sugary enviroments. I wonder if the salt would be a better option? Either way get out and get antibiotics

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    Default sugar

    I have read that honey is a great all around topical antibiotic/wound care item.

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    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
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    Default

    You guys haven't seen Shooter!?!?!?!??! It is an must see! IIRC, he does this in the film after he gets shot.

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    That's KwikClot he used in Shooter to stop the bleeding. He used sugar to give himself an IV to replace lost blood.

    I have never heard of using sugar to fill a wound. I would think that the massive intake of dextrose (sugar) into an open would might cause other problems. I know that the book "Wilderness Medicine" doesn't say a word about sugar or salt for a wound. I consider this book to be the best on the market for not only diagnosing but treating wounds of all types while in the field.

    I'm going to have to have a look at the book you listed, but I am skeptical of the sugar.
    Last edited by KirovPDR; 01-08-2008 at 18:49. Reason: added

  8. #8
    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KirovPDR View Post
    That's KwikClot he used in Shooter to stop the bleeding. He used sugar to give himself an IV to replace lost blood.
    .
    This was after the KwikClot. Then his buddy mentions that sugar was used to treat battlefield wounds. Pretty sure I'm right on this one. BTW, why would you inject sugar into your bloodstream? To increase your blood-sugar content? Not trying to falme, but it doesn't make much sense...

  9. #9

    Default Shooter

    I believe he used sugar to dress the wound and salt for the IV. The movie "SHOOTER" is an attempted knockoff from the book "POINT of IMPACT".
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Default antibiotics are not needed

    In the vast majority of wound management, there is no need for any antibiotics. Recent studies have shown absolutely no benefit to using topical anti-biotics on wounds. A hospital that I go work clinical hours in a couple times a year has completely stopped using fancy antiseptic and antibiotic preparations for most wounds. They simply clean the wound thoroughly with sterile water then sew it up and put a sterile dressing over it. The referenced book, "Ditch Medicine" is a rather old publication and I would take a lot of the info in there with a grain of salt.
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  11. #11
    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Exclamation I don't ...

    "A hospital that I go work clinical hours in a couple times a year has completely stopped using fancy antiseptic and antibiotic preparations for most wounds. They simply clean the wound thoroughly with sterile water then sew it up and put a sterile dressing over it."

    The ER that I work in everyday makes me want to tell anyone reading this to exercise some caution. Except the part about the book "Wilderness Medicine" being a great resource. It is a great book. I do not want to sound smug, but I can not help it. Being an ER nurse, I see the result of poorly cleaned/cared for wounds rather often. And it is not a pretty sight. If you are lucky, you will require oral or IV antibiotics. If you are unlucky, you could loose a body part or become septic and die. You want to be prepared for an open wound, get the new Quik Clot Silver sponges, gauze/duct tape, and some Keflex. Any doc will give you a script for it and it is cheap. Great for any open wound that may come your way. And the Quik Clot Silver will keep you from bleeding. Gauze will hold it in place but duct tape will look cooler. Take what I say with a grain of salt (or sugar). Whatever you choose. I will take the Keflex.
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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Default Antibiotics are being overused and are not needed most of the time

    Here is an excerpt from a recent antibiotic study on skin infections...

    No Antibiotics for Uncomplicated Skin and Soft-Tissue Infections

    A randomized, placebo-controlled trial showed no benefit for antibiotic therapy after surgical incision and drainage of uncomplicated skin and soft-tissue abscesses.

    Standard treatment for skin and soft-tissue abscesses has been incision and drainage and then use of an antibiotic (usually a β-lactam). Recent studies on antibiotic treatment of such infections have shown favorable outcomes even when methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) was isolated and antibiotics without activity against MRSA were used. However, none of these studies were placebo-controlled.

    Now, researchers have conducted a randomized, placebo-controlled trial of oral cephalexin (400 mg 4 times daily for 7 days) in 166 patients who were seen at a San Francisco clinic between November 2004 and March 2005 for uncomplicated skin infections. None of the patients had incisional wounds extending into visceral tissue, bone or joint involvement, infection of prosthetic materials or venous catheters, ischemic ulcers, toxic shock syndrome, full-thickness burn wounds or burn wounds involving >20% of body surface, penicillin or cephalexin allergy, shock, or renal insufficiency. Samples for culture were obtained during the incision-and-drainage procedure, performed at the initial visit. S. aureus was isolated from 70.4% of such cultures. Among tested S. aureus isolates, 87.8% were MRSA; among tested MRSA isolates, 93.0% were positive for Panton-Valentine leukocidin genes.

    Seven days after incision and drainage, the clinical cure rate was similar between the cephalexin and placebo groups (84.1% vs. 90.5%; P=0.25). Follow-up information was available for 17 of the 21 patients with treatment failure; 11 cephalexin-group patients and 6 placebo-group patients were subsequently prescribed other antibiotics.

    Comment: In an era of increasing bacterial resistance, restrictive use of antibiotics is warranted. The present findings suggest that uncomplicated skin and soft-tissue abscesses can be treated safely without antibiotics. If similar data emerge from investigations on other types of infections, we might be able to reduce antibiotic use, thus decreasing selection pressure and antibiotic-associated side effects. The incidence of MRSA infections in study participants is disturbing, even if the study population had a high risk for acquiring such infections, and the extremely high rate of MRSA with Panton-Valentine leukocidin genes is cause for concern.
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  13. #13
    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Still disagree...

    "A randomized, placebo-controlled trial showed no benefit for antibiotic therapy after surgical incision and drainage of uncomplicated skin and soft-tissue abscesses"

    This does not mean anything to me. A surgical incision is a doc using a sterile blade for one thing. And I guarantee you that the site was prepped with betadinie or similar antiseptic. The fact that it did not get infected is not a big surprise. And the above sentence is talking about draining an abscess. Popping a big bump/cyst. Big deal. Big difference in that and slicing your hand with a fishing knife. Try using no antibiotics on that one. You must compare apples to apples. The incision used in the above quote is no more than a 1-2 mm incision (by doc with sterile blade on a cleaned and prepped site in a controlled environment). And if anyone remembers "an independent trial" said orange juice caused cancer about two years ago. Those trials are more worthless than the medical advice given on online forums. Ha ha.

    JOAT- you are absolutely right about the overuse of antibiotics. It is something more and more care providers are paying attention to. Some docs hand out scripts like candy to parents of sick kids even though it would pass on its on in a matter of days. Almost to pacify them if you will. Doing nothing is frowned on and I see that first hand. But often, that is the best thing to do. Hard to tell that to someone with a screaming two year old at 3am though. But you are right in that many times antibiotics are not indicated. In many cases, they should be omitted. That is just not the case with open flesh wounds.
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  14. #14
    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Cool It is fine to disagree...

    There is but one certainty in medicine, which is there will always be dozens of different opinions on any given topic. Remember when the first study came out that aspirin was beneficial for MI? Most medical folks balked at that idea, but now it is as commonly accepted giving O2. Well, in recent months, the number of anti-antibiotic studies have been increasing. I posted a bit of but one out of a half dozen that have rolled across my desk in the last couple months. My current medical director, who is one of the smartest and most progressive doctors I've worked with during my last 18 years in the medical field, has bought into the cautions against using antibiotics for everything. I've got Keflex, Augmentin, Eyrc, and Ancef going bad on the shelf because we're just not using it and we're finding out it really doesn't make any difference.

    A skin abscess is the ultimate in skin infections, so it is very relevant to this discussion. How do we fix an abscess? We turn it into an open wound instead of a closed one. It is standard medical practice to prep a site where you are going to cut into unbroken flesh, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the infection itself. It does ensure a clean catch for the sample of the drained fluid that is sent to the lab. One could use a rusty pocket knife to I&D an abscess and the resulting open wound would be better than the infected closed one. Not recommended to use a rusty pocket knife, but hopefully you get my point.

    We should also not forget that every case and every patient is different. I have cut myself up so much over the years that I have scars all over the place. I've home treated wounds that should have gotten sutures. Yeah, there's a bit more of a scar, but I've never in my life used antibiotics for any skin wound. And I've never had a single dirty cut get infected either. I even performed an I&D on myself once for an abscess. Yes, it hurt, but I drained it and kept it open for the next couple days. No anitbiotics used and it healed up nicely. Never saw a doctor and didn't pay a dime. But that's just me. I know others who can relay similar experiences, but then I can also point you at particular folks who can develop a significant bacterial infection quite easily. I know a couple folks who end up on antibiotics at least a couple times a year due to various infections. It has as much to do with individual physiology as anything else.

    So, let's get back to specifics. You suggested in your post that "any doc will give you a script for Keflex" so you can have some with you just in case. I don't think "any doc" will do this, but a few will. If you are living or traveling in remote areas, it's not a bad idea. I've got a small stockpile of various antibiotics in my advanced medical supplies at home. I keep a good reserve of stuff stashed away for the natural disaster scenario. So, no real issues with that, as long as the person knows how and when to use them. Except for very specific cases, I would strongly caution against "Joe Public" giving his JIC antibiotics to another person who cut himself without specific medical consultation. There are federal laws involved here, plus the state's Good Sam act doesn't cover prescription meds, so you would be taking on a huge liability. If the person has an adverse reaction to the meds you gave them, it will be your fault. If they die or suffer disability, you could be brought up on criminal charges, not to mention civil actions. It is important that people understand this side of the issue. Granted, Keflex is a very "safe" antibiotic, but in the hospital don't you have epi & diphenhydramine standing by for those rare cases of anaphylactic drug reactions? So what do you suppose would happen if someone without medical training gave his Keflex to a guy that just cut himself with his skinning knife in the middle of BFA and it turns out he has a penicillin allergy? He might have just killed his buddy. Do you want that risk?

    Your other suggestion was to start Keflex with "any open wound". Again, I would strongly caution against grabbing antibiotics for every paper cut or poke by a fishing hook. Only a very small percentage of wounds will become infected to the point where antibiotics are warranted. Antibiotics do not take the place of proper wound prep. Getting the wound cleaned out is far more important. Perhaps you are familiar with the ZeroWet irrigation shield at your hospital? http://www.zerowet.com/ (note that you can request free samples via the website, which gives you a couple to put in your kit - I did a couple years ago and they sent 2 shields and a Klenzalac kit to my home address) So, instead of first grabbing for a bottle of antibiotics, I would suggest grabbing your sterile water, 20mL syringe and a ZeroWet and flushing all the junk out of the wound. Once it is cleaned inside and out, cover it with a sterile dressing. Change dressings and check the wound every 12 hours or so and look for signs of infection. If infection does show up, you can then add the antibiotics at that point. Giving them prophylactic for "any open wound" just doesn't make any sense to me.

    I'm just making sure that there is some balance to your suggestions. I'm sure that in 99.7% of the cases, a guy can be given Keflex in the field without medical consultation and nothing bad will happen. I just find it to be unwarranted and suggest that no real good will happen either... at least in 90% of the cases.

    By the way, I fully agree that "Wilderness Medicine" is a good book. It is an actual medical text, written by knowledgable medical folks. I caution about the older Paladin and Desert Publications such as "Ditch Medicine" that were put out by the same publishing company that made books on cooking explosives, converting guns to full auto, and how to build booby traps around your house for when the government thugs come after you in their black helicopters. It was one of only a very few "medical" books they put out and I've browsed through some of them and found a lot of really bad medical info in there.

    Can we at least agree that pouring sugar or salt on the wound is probably a bad idea that has no justified or beneficial value? (drifting back toward the thread topic)
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  15. #15
    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Thumbs down no....

    "Can we at least agree that pouring sugar or salt on the wound is probably a bad idea that has no justified or beneficial value? (drifting back toward the thread topic)"

    Absolutely! I was laughing pretty hard when I read it. Then I got thinking, heck, someone will actually try it. I could not help but to post a comment. As for everything else you say, I disagree. Working as a registered nurse, I have seen hundreds of cases where people with your mindset did nothing and had massive infections to prove it. I have seen people die because of it. Reading your post was very frustrating for me to say the very least. Do what ever makes you happy man. Best of luck!
    The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Default You really concern me dude

    What you're telling me is that you firmly believe that everyone should be equipped with a bottle of Keflex and that they should start taking it with any open wound? No worries about cleaning or dressing it... just start popping antibiotics and hope everything works out OK.

    That is a most unfortunate position for a medical professional to take. Complete disregard for patient assessment, wound management and federal laws for prescription medications. Maybe y'all do things a bit different down south.
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  17. #17
    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Default l.....

    Man you must be having a bad winter. I bet you got beat up a lot in school too. I posted my original response to give people advice that would be helpful. You have contributed nothing but sarcasm. How many lives did you save last year? Every single aspect of your post is opinionated and based on "I heard" and "I read". Well, "I do". And I do it every day. In your last post you implied I did not clean or dress wounds, gave Keflex to everyone, disregarded patient assessment, and had no regard for federal laws. You said earlier that antiseptics were not needed for wound care, only sterile water. Are you serious? Then you now say that referring to me "No worries about cleaning or dressing it". You are making crap up as you go along. Not only are you ignorant, but you are rude as well. Then you said, "Maybe y'all do things a bit different down south". So now you are ignorant, rude, and have no class. Good job man! Things are definately different down south!
    The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.

  18. #18
    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Default Sorry you feel that way

    I'm having a great winter and have been most civil in this discussion with very straight forward and factual information. There was no need to sink to a personal attack just because we disagree. I've asked very straight forward questions, which have yet to be answered. Based on your last post, I'm starting to think you really haven't read the entirety of my posts.

    Yes, I read a lot. My medical director requires it. He also sends me down to the states a couple times a year to work in high volume city hospital ERs, so I'm very familiar with the work done in an ER. When I'm there, I work as an equal to the nurses, but am also allowed to do stuff like suturing and advanced airways with the physicians. I also work in an operating room at least once a year. The rest of the year I'm in the field working primary AND emergency care. The info you provided does not match what I've experienced, hence the reason why I have challenged your posts. However I provided no hear-say info in my posts. It's all based on first hand experience. "I do" too.

    Thought we could have an honest debate over antibiotic use, but clearly that is not possible, so I will let it rest. I have posted my point of view on the subject quite clearly. But feel free to tell Joe Public to throw sugar and Keflex at every paper cut. I just hope they will read my counterpoint and think about it first.
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  19. #19
    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Smile Lets let it rest...

    I am pretty bored with this as well. Your last reply, just like the other ones, is full of examples where you are making assumptions or putting words in my mouth. Either way, quit fabricating your case. I have not said 1/2 the things you suggest. And if you read back a bit, you will see how civil the conversation was until you blasted me and started your school girl routine. There is nothing wrong with us agreeing to disagree. It is not realistic to expect everyone to feel the same way about things. That is fine. But if you would endulge me, what exactly is your job title? Having worked in hospitals all over the country from 12 beds to 700 beds, not to mention 2 years in Alaska, I am rather curious.
    The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.

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    Default

    This thread is kind of bizarre to me. The original post says "Big gaping wound? No hospital for miles?" That to me says we are dealing with emergency care as opposed to medical treatment and we know one of the most important things is to "cause no further harm". I think I'd stick with the basics. Control the bleeding using standard protocols (direct pressure, pressure points, possibly a tourniquet) and NOT introduce ANY foreign material into the wound. Treat for shock and arrange for rapid transport to more definitive care. Show me ANY first responder course material that teaches first responders to introduce any foreign material into a wound other than water for flushing of dirt, etc. Control the bleeding and eat the sugar for energy so you can get your buddy out of the woods and to the hospital!!

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