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Thread: Dipnet recording after every fish?

  1. #1
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    Default Dipnet recording after every fish?

    Yesterday, on the Kasilof the troopers showed up to checked out everyone. I do not have a problem with the troopers checking things out and upon being checked I had clipped the tails and had my license and permit on person. However, I learned something interesting from the trooper. First, I was under the impression that one had to "record your harvest before you leave the area" (as stated on the permit). As it turns out the trooper informed me that one must record the fish immediately upon landing the fish. Thus, one must make a slash mark for each fish brought to shore. I have a couple problems with this: 1). the area for recording a slash mark is 1.5 centimeter by 0.5 centimeters so I do not see how more than 15 fish could possibly be recorded in the space by even the tiniest writing; 2). I think the card would quickly be destroyed because of blood and water if required to record upon landing each fish; and 3). pulling down my waders each time to get at my permit would be a hassle. I called the Nicole "Nikki" Srazy at 907.235.8191 to get clarification on this. She was not in. The lady (not Nicole) who answered affirmed the rule that one must record each fish upon landing while dipnetting. I would like to hear others thoughts on this and whether those that net for large families (more than 55 fish) are able to record that many slash marks in the space provided.

  2. #2
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Default

    When I dipped last week we did not immediately record our catch, but instead did so once we had pulled our boat out of the water. You're right in saying that the card would have been destroyed by water, blood, and slime. I also can't imagine being able to fit slash marks on the card. I've turned previous cards into F&G with numbers written in, not slash marks, and have never gotten a sideways glance over it.

    Hmmm....I'd be interested to hear what info you get from Nicole. Thanks for bringing this up.

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    I talked with Nicole (and others) and she (and others) felt the rule was appropriate and essential to making sure people do not go over their limit. I asked Nicole if she had ever dipnetted and she claimed she had but did not tell me directly if she had placed the slash marks on her permit. Therefore, my understanding from her is that it is necessary to record each fish immediately upon bringing one to shore and not before leaving the fishing area. The permit is somewhat unclear on this. For example, at the top it states "tips of the tails must be removed and harvest must be recored immediately; prior to leaving the fishing site" later it states "you must record your harvest before you leave the fishing site." These unclear areas typically work in favor of the rule enforcer in that they have the discretion in determining how to determine an infraction. Others beware here, especially if you run into a officer crazed on having power.

    I also tried to have Nicole locate a fish and game or trooper that would be able to place enough slash marks in the small area, but she became impetuous and started getting frustrated and did not want to talk anymore. I suggest others call her to get clarification. Her number is 907.235.9191. Nonetheless, given the small space I suggested that the permits need to be bigger, but she felt this would increase the cost. So, not enough room to actually record each fish but one must comply and she suggested crossing out the chum, king, etc. columns and writing "red" at the top. I asked what would one do if they happened to catch one of those fish that one had just crossed out? She did not know. I also suggested that it should be necessary for commercial fishermen to clip all tails and mark each one with a slash mark, but this seemed to make her upset. Commercial fishing must be the sacred cow of the fishing and game? Does anyone know who made this rule and how it can be improved (either a bigger permit so there is enough space for slash marks or a removal of the immediately upon bring to shore).

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    Member russiarulez's Avatar
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    Angry

    Wow.. thats pretty dumb if you ask me.. put a mark for each fish?? XXX people... Honestly lately I feel like everything is being done to make dipnetting as hard as possible for alaskans, maybe F&G hopes we just give up and stop going dipnetting??
    I just don't see myself recording every fish right after I land it... It's hard enough to count it as it is, trying to keep all the fish out of the sand. I know that most people have their limit over 25 single-person fish, I just don't see enough space in that little box to put 75 or whatever check marks. This is BS.
    Last edited by Michael Strahan; 08-06-2007 at 17:35.

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    Member akfishfool's Avatar
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    Angry I don't

    I don't record each fish individually, I am allowed 65 fish and it would literally be impossible. Plus I asked fih & game when I got the permit, and they said before I left the fishing area where I caught the fish. This is complete b.s. whether on purpose, or accidental they have really screwed up on this one. For the record I did not put a slash mark after each fish, I wrote down the total number when I pulled in the net for the last time before we left the fishing area. If someone wants to write me a ticket for this I will gladly take this one to court. I've reached my b.s. limit for the season!!!

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    I read that same regulation and wondered how many people actually do that. It does seem excessive and would guess ADF&G would have to get troopers out there to start writing everyone tickets to get compliance. I would guess they will choose to let that one go as long as they are recorded. Like she said the main thing is getting the right number of fish on the ticket and not over harvesting. I sure don't take my full allocation because I don't take more than I need and don't want to process any more than I have too.

    I did launch my boat at the Pillars boat ramp this year and motored down to dip. I wanted to avoid the city dock. The first day out was a bust and we only got a couple fish. I motored back upsteam after dipping to take out and was writing down my 2 fish on my card at the boat dock. A trooper happened to walk up at the time and said that technically I was suppose to record my 2 fish prior to motoring upstream of the bridge. I thought I had to record them prior to taking out of the water. I thought the "fishing site" was the Kenai but he interpreted it as the dip netting site which is below the bridge. They should try to make it crystal clear so it is not open to debate or multiple interpretations. I know regulations can be tough to get right and hopefully they will continue to improve on it.

  7. #7
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Yup!

    I'm a newbie to dipnetting, as this is only my third season. I remember reading the same thing in the regulations three years ago, so this is nothing new. I can certainly see the problem, and the reason they want you to keep track. It would be easy to go over the limit if you didn't watch it closely. The first year I dipnetted I think I ended up with a grand total of 16 reds, and I marked every one down on the license as I caught them. This year I attempted to do it, but mostly ran out of room, so I ended up counting my fish over and over as they piled up on the bank, just to make sure I didn't overdo it. I ended up 16 fish short of a limit anyway, so it was a moot point.

    I wonder how receptive ADFG would be to us tracking this on a 3x5 card separately? I know it would disintegrate if the person dipping or picking fish out of the net had to keep track, but someone else in the boat or on shore? There are ways to do this I think. I know I would rather keep track as I go than risk a ticket for going over.

    As to the comment of motoring into a non-dipping area before marking them down, I do understand that one. Just remember to pull over before you pass the bridge, and do it then. Not too difficult.

    Another thing I noticed in the regs is that you don't have to clip the tails if the fish remain in plain sight until they're processed. In my situation that works great, because I dipnet in a place with a grassy bank. I just bonk 'em, bleed 'em and let 'em lay in the grass until it's time to fillet them. At that point I do the fillet and toss it in a plastic bag. The carcass goes into the river and it's a done deal. I know that doesn't work for everyone's situation, but it works in mine and may help other folks.

    Hope it helps!

    -Mike
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  8. #8

    Default new cards

    If they intend for us to make a slashmark then they need to remake the cards to:

    1. Have enough room for a ton of slashmarks ( I have five kids so that's up to 85 slashmarks total in all of my trips).
    2. Laminate or somehow waterproof, or just make the cards able to withstand moisture exposure.

    I'm guessing this is one of the many many things you get a different answer from different law enforcement personnel.
    Hike faster. I hear banjo music.

  9. #9

    Default Read the regs

    The permit AND the regulations are very clear on this, and anyone that can read can see what it says:


    Permits must be filled in each time you fish

    "You must record the date, location, and harvest by species each time you fish. You must fill in this information even if you did not catch any fish - write "0" in the space provided for harvest.
    The salmon must be recorded on the permit before it is concealed from plain view, such as put in a cooler, or before the salmon is transported from the fishing site, such as your vehicle. Failure to record the salmon on the permit is a violation, and may be subject to fines and loss of future personal use fishing privileges".

    This is right out of the regulation, and if a Fish and Game Trooper or a clerk in the F&G office doesn't know it, either educate them by showing it to them or telling them where to read it for themselves. It is very plain to me, and I would challenge a citation on this every time and demand my confiscated fish be returned or be compensated for their false and improper confiscation per their own rules. Notice it says "each time you fish", not "each fish you catch".

    Just my 2 cents worth, as I had this very conversation with a Trooper on the banks of the Kenai recently. He looked it up and told me I was absolutely correct and as long as I didn't "hide" them in a cooler and marked my card before I left the site, I was perfectly legal not marking every fish as I caught it. That assumption is absurd while trying to net these fish.
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

  10. #10

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    Alaskariverrat: Did you receive a citation? I'm guessing you did not otherwise you probably would have said so. That would indicate to me that the protection officer was either trying to be reasonable or wasn't 100% positive about the requirement.

    As stated by others, as long as fish are not concealed or removed from the fishing site, you don't need to complete the harvest permit. Hash marks are an acceptable way to record fish if someone chooses to use that method, but hash marks are not required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawken54 View Post
    The salmon must be recorded on the permit before it is concealed from plain view, such as put in a cooler, or before the salmon is transported from the fishing site, such as your vehicle. Failure to record the salmon on the permit is a violation, and may be subject to fines and loss of future personal use fishing privileges".
    This is the problem or perhaps the confusion and the first part up to the "or" is what is focused on by the Fish and game and troopers. If one puts there catch in a cooler than one must make a hash mark (this is a little different than the phone conversations I had with the three fish and game folks claimed that EACH fish brought to shore need to be placed on the dipnet card as a slash mark not just the concealed fish in a cooler). However, the "or" part is ignored in favor of the concealment part, thus resulting in the potential for more tickets, stolen fish from the dipnetter, and a promotion for the trooper. I prefer the "before the salmon is transported from the fishing site." A responsible person would view this as after cleaning, (maybe filleting) and packing up ones gear would mean the intent to leave the fishing site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akkona View Post
    Alaskariverrat: Did you receive a citation? I'm guessing you did not otherwise you probably would have said so. That would indicate to me that the protection officer was either trying to be reasonable or wasn't 100% positive about the requirement.

    As stated by others, as long as fish are not concealed or removed from the fishing site, you don't need to complete the harvest permit. Hash marks are an acceptable way to record fish if someone chooses to use that method, but hash marks are not required.
    I did not receive a citation. However, I was under the impression the trooper was itching to give out a ticket and steal someones fish. I was cleaning my fish (I had eight chromers at the time) and he was eyeballing them like a thief would do of something of value. As noted before, I had my permit and fishing license on person, had cut the tails and they were in a sack. Once this was determined the trooper made up the slash mark requirement for each fish and I informed him of the "before leaving the fishing area" requirement for recording fish. He mentioned the "or" part of the regulation implying that the regulation was at his discretion.

    Now, for something additional to discuss. I was always under the impression that law officers needed "probable cause" before approaching citizens.

    I remember the fourth amendment stating the following: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    I saw no one on the Kasilof that day that would have warranted probable cause. However, I will note the first two groups searched were people of color, followed by the poor white folks, then the middle class looking folks which were treated less like a deviant.

  13. #13

    Default

    That quote has broad applications for Law Enforcement. True, they cannot pull you over for no reason just to look in your car or to see if you are wanted or carrying a gun, but the fish and feathers cops can ensure you are following the laws by checking out your catch or harvest. That's not an unreasonable search.

    And on the rest of the last message, I am as white as they come, but all around me were people of color, poor white folks and women, but I was the very first one they checked, and then my white wife. They never looked at one of the "people of color" around us. The assumption/accusation here that they are racists or bigots is absurd, to say the least, and is uncalled for. This is a thread about the fish laws, not race.
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawken54 View Post
    They never looked at one of the "people of color" around us. The assumption/accusation here that they are racists or bigots is absurd, to say the least, and is uncalled for. This is a thread about the fish laws, not race.
    Well, that is where the search went on the day I was at the river. Race was the focal point for those officers. So, on this activity -- the only people of color were asked for their license first. Make your own conclusions.

  15. #15
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Clarification from ADFG

    Okay, so I went in the other day and turned in my Dipnetting permit and asked the "regulations gal" what the deal was with this hash mark on the permit thing. She said that you don't have to write the hash marks directly on the permit, but you can use another piece of paper. Sooo.... it would appear that at least that part of the problem can be worked through. Of course, the guy dipnetting will have wet, slimy hands from picking fish out of his net, so someone else in his party would have to do that (sorry, solo dipnetters!). At least it's a step in the right direction...

    The ridiculous thing though is the tail clipping thing. The regs allow you to toss your fish up on the bank without clipping the tails, as long as they remain in plain view. If they go in a cooler or a bucket, etc, you have to clip the tails. In my case, I just bleed them and toss them in the shade until I'm ready to fillet them. She said that after I fillet them I must clip the tails before tossing the carcasses to the seagulls! I asked her why and she said it was so they knew the difference between sport caught fish and dipnetted fish. Okay, so let me get this straight. They want us to chop up the carcasses before we toss them back in the river (I chop mine into seagull bite-sized pieces), and also clip the tails too? And this is so, just before the tail section goes down a seagull's throat, folks who care about such things can see whether the seagulls are swallowing the tail of a dipnetted fish or a sport-caught fish. Huh? I think these regs need a little work...

    -Mike
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  16. #16

    Default Clipped tails.

    I agree. Ain't it crazy???????/
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

  17. #17
    Member AKFishOn's Avatar
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    Default Marking of Fish on the Dip card

    When checked in 2003 the Fish and Game folks said that if I placed them in the tubs shown in the attached picture that I would not have to write my number down until I was leaving the fishing site. I was checked and my card was filled out with 53 Reds near the turn around (dumpsters) on the North side of the Kenai.

    Suppose it may have changed by now and they want you to write it on your harvest card. I saw some folks write phrases on pieces of rice once, guess I should get one of those very fine tip pens which you might need a magnify glass to read that might not make them happy any way.

    If we have to start marking them when we keep them (one at a time) one of my sons has just picked up another task ;-). I think I will get him a clip board as it will make him feel more important in the task. It might help with the counting as I usually end up counting fish 4 or 5 times when I start getting close to my limit. Then I normally keep 2-3 fish short of a limit to see if I canít add a king when later accompanying friends on trips to dip net.

    I have the same question about proxy fishing, as Iíve been marking them down upon catching them. Pain in the butt but I want to make sure Iím following the ďimmediatelyĒ rule of proxy fishing.

  18. #18
    Member AKFishOn's Avatar
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    Default Pic as mentioned above

    Forgot to attach the pic

  19. #19
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default I like the way you're thinkin'

    Quote Originally Posted by AKFishOn View Post
    When checked in 2003 the Fish and Game folks said that if I placed them in the tubs shown in the attached picture that I would not have to write my number down until I was leaving the fishing site. I was checked and my card was filled out with 53 Reds near the turn around (dumpsters) on the North side of the Kenai.

    Suppose it may have changed by now and they want you to write it on your harvest card. I saw some folks write phrases on pieces of rice once, guess I should get one of those very fine tip pens which you might need a magnify glass to read that might not make them happy any way.

    If we have to start marking them when we keep them (one at a time) one of my sons has just picked up another task ;-). I think I will get him a clip board as it will make him feel more important in the task. It might help with the counting as I usually end up counting fish 4 or 5 times when I start getting close to my limit. Then I normally keep 2-3 fish short of a limit to see if I canít add a king when later accompanying friends on trips to dip net.

    I have the same question about proxy fishing, as Iíve been marking them down upon catching them. Pain in the butt but I want to make sure Iím following the ďimmediatelyĒ rule of proxy fishing.
    I think the rice idea might catch on. You can cram a LOT of rice on that harvest ticket, which means you could catch a fish every day of the dipnetting season and not run out of room. And just think- one sack of rice would last quite a few years, unless you got hungry...

    Anyway, I took the liberty of calling some friends in India and they found this guy for me that said he would be happy to write down my catch each day on a grain of rice. I think he's the same guy who wrote the entire Lord's Prayer on a grain of rice... but oh wait! Does that mean he is "helping" me dipnet? For shame! I guess I will have to find an Alaska resident who can do the job.

    I like the idea of giving your son a clipboard... he might be Management material some day if he gets used to carrying that thing around though. Next thing you know he'll be telling you how to do it...

    Hmmm... lots of ideas to think about between now and next season...

    :-)

    -Mike
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  20. #20
    Member AKFishOn's Avatar
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    Default Marking of Fish on the Dip card

    Trying the pic again
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