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Thread: Hand Loading for the 454 Casull - Wow, what a minefield

  1. #21
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunbugs View Post
    I don't think we are seeking a cure. just a level of control....
    By "control" do you mean "using two hands", or "I can quit buying more guns anytime I want"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chez View Post
    I appreciat the concern for safety regarding the 45/454 loads but would like to understand the dangers of loading 45 loads in 454 brass. If the AOL is the same shouldnt the pressures be the same?
    The 454 is a longer case. More capacity. Needs a different load.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    By "control" do you mean "using two hands", or "I can quit buying more guns anytime I want"?

    The second statement. I can say it's not working for me.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chez View Post
    I appreciat the concern for safety regarding the 45/454 loads but would like to understand the dangers of loading 45 loads in 454 brass. If the AOL is the same shouldnt the pressures be the same?
    There are some powders you can download with and some you canít. Donít download with H110/WW296 to 45 Colt levels in a Casull as an example. Trail Boss is a fairly universal powder for light loads (there are others). Hereís how to use it if you havenít seen this before:

    https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/u...loads-2018.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeRoss View Post
    The 454 is a longer case. More capacity. Needs a different load.
    Quote Originally Posted by gbflyer View Post
    There are some powders you can download with and some you canít. Donít download with H110/WW296 to 45 Colt levels in a Casull as an example. Trail Boss is a fairly universal powder for light loads (there are others). Hereís how to use it if you havenít seen this before:

    https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/u...loads-2018.pdf

    I understand that BUT (theres always a but ) if its seated to the same AOL as a 45 colt then case capacity isn't an issue, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chez View Post
    I understand that BUT (theres always a but ) if its seated to the same AOL as a 45 colt then case capacity isn't an issue, right?
    Only .100 difference in case length. I see your point. Interesting question. Let us know how it turns out.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chez View Post
    I understand that BUT (theres always a but ) if its seated to the same AOL as a 45 colt then case capacity isn't an issue, right?
    If same bullet seated .1" deeper in different brass, where is it crimped? Does the different crimp location effect bullet release? Is the neck tension the same? What is the relative case capacity? Is the case wall the same thickness? Even if the relative capacity measures the same, is it the same shape; does a longer skinnier column of powder act the same as a shorter wider column of the same volume? Does the Casull brass have large primer pockets, or small primer pockets?....
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Music Man View Post
    And "what if" the sun don't shine?
    Remaining in the dark about reloading complexities cannot be blamed on a lack of sunlight.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Remaining in the dark about reloading complexities cannot be blamed on a lack of sunlight.
    Agreed. Hence my creation of this thread. I feel it better to admit my ignorance and gain "enlightenment" than to hide my ignorance only to display it with improperly created dangers, unnecessarily so.

  11. #31
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    Loading 45 Colt loads in 454 cases with the same OAL will be fairly close but there are differences and as such you should start with the 45 Colt starting load and workup. Any time you change anything in a load, you should back the powder charge down to the starting load and work back up. And H110/W296 is not the powder to be down loading.I would recommend only book loads until you have quite a bit of experience with working up to the max in a book load before messing with things that may or may not work. Loading stiff 45 Colt loads in 454 brass should not be a problem with 2400 but loading very light loads in large cases can be dangerous as well. Check a few different manuals as there should be some loads listed for the heavy bullets in the 454 at the lower velocities you want. Lymans cast bullet manual would be a good place to start.

  12. #32

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    I bought a Toklat in 454 a short while back. What I have found is that it will not shoot as well with 45 Colt brass as 454 brass. Seating them longer doesn't seem to help.
    I have reverted back to shooting my Blackhawks in 45 Colt. The difference in velocity between my 7.5 inch 45 Colt with a stiff load and top loads in the shorter barreled Toklat is not all that much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmerkeithclone View Post
    I bought a Toklat in 454 a short while back. What I have found is that it will not shoot as well with 45 Colt brass as 454 brass. Seating them longer doesn't seem to help.
    I have reverted back to shooting my Blackhawks in 45 Colt. The difference in velocity between my 7.5 inch 45 Colt with a stiff load and top loads in the shorter barreled Toklat is not all that much.
    Which is the most comfortable, or least uncomfortable to shoot those loads? The Blackhawk or the Tokey?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chez View Post
    I understand that BUT (theres always a but ) if its seated to the same AOL as a 45 colt then case capacity isn't an issue, right?
    Chez, I don't think the issue is so much OAL as it is the crud buildup in the cylinder in front of the 45 Colt brass. If cleaned properly between swapping brass, no issues. If not dealt with, can cause difficulty chambering and dangerous spikes because of constricted case mouth on the longer 454 brass.
    Don't want no one to get hurt, but if yore gonna have a wreck, I wanna watch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm seas View Post
    Chez, I don't think the issue is so much OAL as it is the crud buildup in the cylinder in front of the 45 Colt brass. If cleaned properly between swapping brass, no issues. If not dealt with, can cause difficulty chambering and dangerous spikes because of constricted case mouth on the longer 454 brass.
    Also, as stated previously, using the same powder charge and seating the same bullet to same OAL changes the internal volume of the two brasses - the 454 is .1 longer. General rule of thumb, more space means less pressure for the same charge. Not an issue sometimes with some powders ie Unique in 358 Winchester for cast is a safe starting point for the same bullet in 35 Whelen. As stated previously, H110 and W296 are special critters. I use all 454 brass in my 454's, whether loaded to mimic 45 ACP, or full-power bear loads. Or anything in between.
    Don't want no one to get hurt, but if yore gonna have a wreck, I wanna watch.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by calm seas View Post
    Also, as stated previously, using the same powder charge and seating the same bullet to same OAL changes the internal volume of the two brasses - the 454 is .1 longer. General rule of thumb, more space means less pressure for the same charge.
    Chez was suggesting seating the same bullet in the Casull brass to the same OAL as in the Colt brass, and hypothesizing that by doing so a Colt load recipe could be applied to Casull brass, apples to apples. But last time I checked, 454 Casull brass was thicker than 45 Colt brass. Therefore, seating the same bullet to the same OAL may result in less internal powder space in the Casull brass than in the Colt brass, not more. Also, most Casull brass uses small primers, etc., etc... The bottom line is that a given load recipe for one cartridge is not transferable to a completely different cartridge. Full stop.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Also, most Casull brass uses small primers, etc., etc....
    Most of mine takes large pistol primers, although I do have some that takes small rifle primers.
    Hunt Ethically. Respect the Environment.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Which is the most comfortable, or least uncomfortable to shoot those loads? The Blackhawk or the Tokey?

    Smitty of the North
    I have a Hogue grip on my Blackhawk and I can handle anything it can handle. Same with my Bisley. The Toklat with a hot load is more to handle but they come with a well designed grip that makes it tolerable.

  19. #39

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    chez's question is an interesting one. one consideration i was thinking about was that extra length of the casull brass. if the .45 case and .454 case were the same thickness, than a bullet seated at the same OAL would have similar internal capacities. one thought i would have, is how much extra pressure could build due to the tension of the .45 bullet being held in that extra length of the casull brass? do you think that extra pressure could cause a catastrophic failure? my initial reaction is no...due to the pressures the casull platform is built to withstand i would imagine they could handle it without causing harm. would i do it? nope, not ever. i've learned my lessons in experimental reloading. kinda fun to hypothetically think about though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak-fang View Post
    chez's question is an interesting one. one consideration i was thinking about was that extra length of the casull brass. if the .45 case and .454 case were the same thickness, than a bullet seated at the same OAL would have similar internal capacities. one thought i would have, is how much extra pressure could build due to the tension of the .45 bullet being held in that extra length of the casull brass? do you think that extra pressure could cause a catastrophic failure? my initial reaction is no...due to the pressures the casull platform is built to withstand i would imagine they could handle it without causing harm. would i do it? nope, not ever. i've learned my lessons in experimental reloading. kinda fun to hypothetically think about though.
    I agree. There would be a difference in neck tension, but that should not be a huge factor. You could easily crimp a cast bullet into the bearing surface.

    You don't need a load that is on the ragged edge of safe pressure, anyway. A 454 load in 45 C brass is doable, but the need for it is dubious, IMO.

    ALSO, such a load MUST NOT be short enough to work in a 45 Colt cylinder.

    As to 454 brass being stronger, I dunno. I thought +P 38 Special brass was stronger than regular 38 Special brass, too, but I encountered a bunch folks saying there was no diff. ???

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