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Thread: 357 mag Corbon A-frame (bear defense)

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    Default 357 mag Corbon A-frame (bear defense)

    Curious if anyone here used a Corbon A-frame in a 357 mag or similar caliber?
    I am strongly considering a hard cast but would like a round that both penetrates deep and has "some" expansion.
    As the title states, this would be for back-up in case of an interior near.
    No, I won't go to a larger caliber since this will also be used by my wife. I want us both to be able to handle it and shoot accurately....but thanks anyway

    Any thoughts on penetration for this round or suggest a different cartidge?
    Thanks!

    Edit: use in a SP101 with 4.2" barrel

    https://shopcorbon.com/index.php?rou...product_id=392

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    My theory for bear defense is penetration and the bullet holding together trumps everything. For hunting, sure both is good. But for stopping a bear you are relying on a hit to the cns or breaking bones, since no handgun smaller than a 460 or 500 is really going to "break them down" you really are hoping to hit the brain or the spine, may as well shoot the hardest/heaviest projectile your pistol will shoot. Who cares if you get a great expanding wound into the chest cavity....the bear may be dead but wont know it for a few minutes until after its done making a mess out of you....use hunting bullets for...wait for it....hunting. Use hard cast as the hail mary for hopefully stopping a bear, if you need to.... my .02

    I use 10mm which can offer maybe just slightly heavier bullets and a little less velocity so I wont judge your caliber choice but I think that bullet would be more suited to boiler room shots on deer and caribou then being relied on to get to a bears brain or spinal cord...

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    Swift A-frame is know for use on large, thick skinned game. It has a slow expansion thus allowing it to penetrate deeply.
    Obviously, it probably won't penetrate as deep as a hard cast.
    But it probably will penetrate enough....?
    I like data. There is no tests on the handgun cartridges in A-frame.
    CorBon's cartridge is 180g and has a higher fps than the federal.
    Was hoping someone here would have some experience with it.

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    No experience with that particular round but I would give the nod to HC as well for penetration. Also, look at the 180g JSP from Corbon....hard hitting and deep penetrating.


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    This is now a mute question. Seems CorBon may have just been bought out. Their ammo is pretty scarce.
    Shows on their website that I can still order the A-frame ammo from CorBon direct but at a really steep price.
    Just discovered that Swift themselves also make a 357 mag ammo. About the same price as CorBon.
    Also at a much higher 1363 fps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by north to alaska View Post
    Swift A-frame is know for use on large, thick skinned game. It has a slow expansion thus allowing it to penetrate deeply.
    Obviously, it probably won't penetrate as deep as a hard cast.
    But it probably will penetrate enough....?
    I like data. There is no tests on the handgun cartridges in A-frame.
    CorBon's cartridge is 180g and has a higher fps than the federal.
    Was hoping someone here would have some experience with it.
    Do what you like, the more penetration the better. Out of a rifle with rifle velocities, out of a pistol with pistol velocities I'd stick to what we know penetrates the most. Like I said for hunting sure, for defense I just don't see the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy Sharp View Post
    Do what you like, the more penetration the better. Out of a rifle with rifle velocities, out of a pistol with pistol velocities I'd stick to what we know penetrates the most. Like I said for hunting sure, for defense I just don't see the point.
    I fully understand your point. Will likely go with hard cast.
    But....
    Because tiny holes from front to arse is not as good as big holes from front to inards and spine. Hard cast will get through but how much damage? A-frame will damage but how far will it get through?

    Here is a thread that I just recently found. Interesting reflection from someone on this forum that was switching to an A-frame from hard cast because of his experience....for hunting though.

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ng-to-A-frames

    357 mag with A-frames and their balistics (and barrel length)
    CorBon: 1200 fps, 576 ft/lbs, 4" barrel
    Swift: 1363 fps, 742 ft/lbs, 20" barrel
    Federal: 1130 fps, ? Ft/lbs, 6" barrel

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    The A-Frame at 180gr in the 357 caliber is good to go. I use it from Swift, same ammo. It will deliver a game stopping round, and is manageable. I recommend it.

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    IMO - seems like you're looking for optimal protection with a sub-optimal firearm. You stated you won't upgrade the caliber (for reasons I understand) and no matter what round you choose, you're still looking at sub-optimal results, unless everything lines up perfectly.
    Since your chances of needing to use the gun (as bear protection) is so low, a Vegas bookie wouldn't set odds, go with whatever round gives YOU the most confidence and enjoy your trip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by north to alaska View Post
    I fully understand your point. Will likely go with hard cast.
    But....
    Because tiny holes from front to arse is not as good as big holes from front to inards and spine. Hard cast will get through but how much damage? A-frame will damage but how far will it get through?

    Here is a thread that I just recently found. Interesting reflection from someone on this forum that was switching to an A-frame from hard cast because of his experience....for hunting though.



    357 mag with A-frames and their balistics (and barrel length)
    CorBon: 1200 fps, 576 ft/lbs, 4" barrel
    Swift: 1363 fps, 742 ft/lbs, 20" barrel
    Federal: 1130 fps, ? Ft/lbs, 6" barrel
    Not an expert on bear defense, but as far as I understand it, a hunting bullet is used for hunting. I imagine that you can kill a bear with it, but a hard-cast bullet of the same weight will offer more penetration than an expanding bullet or hunting bullet in this case, plus some bone-breaking capabilities.

    The following is quoted from Buffalo Bore Ammo:
    https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=108

    ➤ If you are relying on brain shots, it is not all that hard to kill adult grizzly bears. Almost any center fire cartridge of 357 bore or larger with a very hard non-expanding, flat nosed bullet will pierce a bears skull with direct /frontal (between the eyes) hits. From the side angle, shoot them right at the bottom of the ear canal. These two shots are instant death, if you are using correct ammo.The old MYTH that bullets will slide off a bearís skull is pure hogwash, when using modern ammo featuring bullets that will not mushroom when fired out of a powerful handgun. When using high powered rifles, it is OK if the bullet mushrooms as the high velocity of the rifle bullet, will puncture the bears skull regardless, because of its high velocity. 150 years ago, when the early settlers were heading west, the muzzle loaders they used, fired pure lead (very soft) round balls that would or could flatten out against bone and possibly slide off, leaving only a surface wound, when hitting a bears head. Unless you are using pure lead bullets that are rounded, this situation is no longer a concern.



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    If a 9mm can take down a 800 lb bear, then a 357 mag is not underpowered.
    No, I am not likely to need it and I pray that is the case. Millions in the lower 48 carry a weapon for defense against muggers etc. If I were to lay odds, I will more likely need a bear defense in Alaska than ever need protection in the lower 48.
    I have come to the conclusion that the A-frame would be a great bear defense cartridge due to it's construction for slow expansion and deep penetration. African hunters like it.

    Unfortunately, I don't hand load and my three options are listed above in a previous post. The only one that I believe to have sufficient velocity is the CorBon and I can only find those at CorBon's website for about $48 a box of tweenty plus $20 shipping.

    Hard cast will due just fine.
    Grizzly Ammo?
    Buffalo Bore seems to get stuck in the cylinder from some reviews?

    Thanks for the conversation!

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    Quote Originally Posted by north to alaska View Post
    If a 9mm can take down a 800 lb bear, then a 357 mag is not underpowered.
    No, I am not likely to need it and I pray that is the case. Millions in the lower 48 carry a weapon for defense against muggers etc. If I were to lay odds, I will more likely need a bear defense in Alaska than ever need protection in the lower 48.
    I have come to the conclusion that the A-frame would be a great bear defense cartridge due to it's construction for slow expansion and deep penetration. African hunters like it.

    Unfortunately, I don't hand load and my three options are listed above in a previous post. The only one that I believe to have sufficient velocity is the CorBon and I can only find those at CorBon's website for about $48 a box of tweenty plus $20 shipping.

    Hard cast will due just fine.
    Grizzly Ammo?
    Buffalo Bore seems to get stuck in the cylinder from some reviews?

    Thanks for the conversation!


    That's very poor logic, I assume you are referring to the incident in western alaska where a guide took down a small brownie with a 9mm.....it took way too many shots to comfortably say that it is sufficient. While I think the 357 with a proper bullet is an ok choice given thats what you shoot and are comfortable with dragging the incedent with the 9mm seems pretty flawed. Sure a 22 with enough ammo could end the same way but....

    I've shot some grizzly 200 grain hc through my 1911 in 10mm with good results as well as bb 220 grain. I carry the bb a little heavier and a little hotter, but would gladly run the grizzly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy Sharp View Post
    That's very poor logic, I assume you are referring to the incident in western alaska where a guide took down a small brownie with a 9mm.....it took way too many shots to comfortably say that it is sufficient. While I think the 357 with a proper bullet is an ok choice given thats what you shoot and are comfortable with dragging the incedent with the 9mm seems pretty flawed. Sure a 22 with enough ammo could end the same way but....

    I've shot some grizzly 200 grain hc through my 1911 in 10mm with good results as well as bb 220 grain. I carry the bb a little heavier and a little hotter, but would gladly run the grizzly
    A 100 rounds of .22 bullets might take down a bear....when you finally hit it in the eye ball. Lol

    I was trying to emphasize that lesser guns have done the job and that is not the only example.
    More powerful guns have also NOT done the job.
    Shot placement + power. More power causes poorer shot placement. Less power requires better shot placement. Tug of war.

    Sorry, didn't want to have a discussion on the merrits of certain calibers. Just to ask if anyone had experience with the a-frame, especially from a handgun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shulse01 View Post
    The A-Frame at 180gr in the 357 caliber is good to go. I use it from Swift, same ammo. It will deliver a game stopping round, and is manageable. I recommend it.
    I hope you're close enough to put one in the eyeball of an ornery 10' brownie that wants to eat you, cause that's what it'll take!
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfromAK View Post
    ...
    The old MYTH that bullets will slide off a bearís skull is pure hogwash...
    Well that very thing just happened to the kid that got mauled by a sow. An 06' round bounced off her head at very close range.
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    4merguide
    Are you just just stirring the pot. I would say that 06 round was not a proper angle to penetrate the skull. They just don't "BOUNCE OFF". I hear that crap all the time. If you shoot at a tree and only knock off the bark on one side the bullet did not bounce off you just missed your target.
    DENNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4merguide View Post
    I hope you're close enough to put one in the eyeball of an ornery 10' brownie that wants to eat you, cause that's what it'll take!
    Why would you say that? Do you have any idea if how the A-frame is constructed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by boneguy View Post
    4merguide
    Are you just just stirring the pot.
    No Denny, just relaying what was said on facebook about the mauling. Don't know if you saw it but there is actually a picture of where the bear was hit in the head. Interesting thing is that it looks more like the slug is lodged in the scull, and not that it bounced off. Hard to tell though.

    What I find mind boggling is the fact that with any large caliber slug anywhere to the head of a bear that it doesn't at least knock them senseless at least for awhile. From the sounds of it she just kept on coming!
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by north to alaska View Post
    Why would you say that? Do you have any idea if how the A-frame is constructed?

    Sure...they're great bullets! But give me a break....do you have any idea how thick a 10' brownie's skull is? I've seen even smaller brownies run off with both shoulders and half their lungs blown out! I don't care if you manage to penetrate all that mass and take out it's heart, they pump so slow that they still have time to take you out before it totally stops. You try shooting a big charging bear in the head with a 357 at any distance at all, unless you hit it perfectly you ain't gonna stop it if it wants you. I've personally seen a polar bear skull with holes all in it from guys shooting 44 mags. The thing kept on coming till one guy put one in it's eye. Like Troy said, you do what you want but I totally agree with what he's been telling you.
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    No bear expert.

    The 9mm load was Bullalo Bore +P Outdoorsman 147 gr FN hardcast loads of MV 1100 fps. Phil is quoted: "I have previously tested, compared & proven such loads with my .357 and .44 mags., and I was convinced they would work."

    His normal carry handgun is reported to be a S&W 629 .44 mag Mountain Gun. He stated his previous gun had been a .357 that he used some type of Norma full jacket (I forgot exactly what he called them...something different) loads. He'd tested them on bear skulls and found they penetrated. He passed the .357 on to his daughter.

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